Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke attends a news conference by the conservative Catholic group Voice of the Family in Rome on Oct. 15, 2015. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Alessandro Bianchi

US cardinal says 'Christian nations' in West must counter Islamic influx

(RNS) Amid heightened tensions over ISIS-fueled terror attacks and anti-Muslim rhetoric, a prominent U.S. cardinal says Islam “wants to govern the world” and Americans must decide if they are going to reassert “the Christian origin of our own nation” in order to avoid that fate.

Cardinal Raymond Burke, a Rome-based prelate known as an outspoken conservative and critic of Pope Francis’ reformist approach, said in an interview on Wednesday (July 20) that Islam is “fundamentally a form of government.”

While Catholic teaching recognizes that all Abrahamic faiths worship the same God, Burke criticized Catholic leaders who, in an effort to be tolerant, have a tendency “to simply think that Islam is a religion like the Catholic faith or the Jewish faith.”

"That simply is not objectively the case,” he said.

Burke, who was once archbishop of St. Louis, stressed that he did not want to be “disrespectful” of Islam or “generate hostility."

But he said he worries that many people do not understand that, in his view, “when they (Muslims) become the majority in any country they have the duty to submit the whole population to Shariah,” as the Islamic code of law is known.

The cardinal is a canon lawyer who headed the Vatican’s court system before Francis named him chaplain of the Knights of Malta, a Rome-based charitable order.

Burke was speaking by telephone from his home state of Wisconsin, where he was spending time this summer while doing interviews for a new book, “Hope for the World: To Unite All Things in Christ.” The book is an extended interview with a French journalist and it covers a range of often controversial topics.

Speaking to RNS, Burke said that individual Muslims “are lovely people” and can speak “in a very peaceful manner about questions of religion.”

“But my point is this: When they become a majority in any country then they have the religious obligation to govern that country. If that’s what the citizens of a nation want, well, then, they should just allow this to go on. But if that’s not what they want, then they have to find a way to deal with it.”

He said that in some cities in France and Belgium with large Muslim populations “there are little Muslim states” that are effectively “no-go zones” for government authorities – an assertion that is widely disputed.

But Burke claimed “these things aren’t anomalies for Islam. This is the way things are to go. … And if you do understand that and you are not at peace with the idea of being forcibly under an Islamic government, then you have reason to be afraid.”

He cited historical examples of famous military clashes between Muslim forces and the forces of Christian nations of Europe, such the Battle of Lepanto in 1571 and the Battle of Vienna in 1683, both of which marked defeats for the Ottoman Empire.

“These historical events relate directly with the situation of today. There’s no question that Islam wants to govern the world,” Burke said.

When asked how the West should respond, the cardinal did not cite or endorse specific proposals, like those championed by the Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump and other conservatives, to ban or limit Muslims coming into the U.S.

“I think the appropriate response,” he said, “is to be firm about the Christian origin of our own nation, and certainly in Europe, and the Christian foundations of the government, and to fortify those.”

He said that form of government permits all people to exercise their religious faith – “as long as it’s not against good order” – and “practices that tolerance which follows from Christian charity.”

“I think we have to insist on that. We have to say no, our country is not free to become a Muslim state.”

Those comments elaborate on an answer that Burke gives in the new book, in which he says of Islam that “the (Catholic) Church really should be afraid of it."

That is a marked contrast to the approach of Francis and most other church leaders, who have called for dialogue with Islam and a welcoming attitude toward Muslim refugees fleeing strife in many lands.

Official church teaching has for decades also recognized Islam as an Abrahamic faith whose followers worship the same God as Jews and Christians.

Burke has frequently made news with his sharp criticisms of Francis' pontificate (he once called it "a rudderless ship") and the pope's more pastoral approach. The cardinal has also called on church leaders to be more forceful in battling abortion rights and gay marriage and has said the church has become too "feminized."


  1. Islam wants to govern the world.
    Christianity wants to govern the world.
    The only difference between the two is that we took away the latter’s means for doing so.

  2. Doesn’t Burke, as a Christian, have an obligation to convert the entire world to Christianity? That’s what the good book says and it sounds just as scary as his claims about Islam. And I doubt he knows anything about Muslims other than what’s he’s read or is being spoon-fed to him. His interview sounds like RNC talking points.
    Also, founded as a Christian nation? This comment touches on the merger of the Catholic and Evangelical political right wings. Several of the Founders were anti-Catholic, a view that reflected the US of the time. Somehow, those nuances don’t seem to matter when you realize that you’re on the losing side of the culture wars and need any allies you can get.

  3. Cardinal Burke says nothing here that is controversial, except to the willfully blind. It’s a simple fact that Muslim percentage of the population and Sharia law correlate always and everywhere. The same Progressives that find this correlation indecisive are also inclined to gloss over the treatment of women in majority Muslim countries. Progressives balyhoo about women’s rights until they find a reason to push this issue aside in confronting their real enemy: Christianity.

  4. Which means you’ll probably end up with the former. Get ready to be thrown off a building.

  5. What an ignorant fellow.

    Does he not know about that item in the Constitution that says “no religious test for office”? Does he not know about the Enlightenment?

    Is he unfamiliar with the way the Catholic church has ridden roughshod over the rights of people in the past century–in Ireland, Spain, Poland, and other countries?

    Hawaii Dave, you are right, of course, that Islam is dangerous. There is not a single heavily Muslim country in the world that enjoys the liberties of any Western country.

    I dunno….maybe the cardinal is more vicious and dangerous than ignorant.

  6. Mike, you said ” none of the Founding Fathers would agree with the depth or breadth of the Govt as it now exists. “.

    Are you able to read the minds of dead people? Or is your statement based on your extensive study of constitutional history? Please tell us.

  7. The First People and The People predicted the same thing about the Euro invasion of North America. Once Christianity got a foothold on this soil, the native population became victims of genocide.

  8. So, you would just stand by and let this country become Islamic. Actually, you would be lying about how bad Catholicism is, while the Islamist took over the country.

    You are the problem

  9. This article has some pretty glaring mistakes. One of which claims Muslims worship the same God as Christians. This is false as Muslims reject the Son of God, Jesus Christ, and relegate him to a mere prophet. Whoever rejects the Son, rejects the Father. So they cannot possibly worship the same God. Luke 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to Me; whoever rejects you rejects Me; and whoever rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”

    Also see

  10. But it is also true that native peoples enjoyed committing genocide on rach other . The Huron were wiped out by the Algonquins. Totally wiped out. Genocide in a big way. Indians also enjoyed enslaving other indians. So, let true history be your guide.

  11. He is right. The founders would choke if they saw the oppressive, massive, liberty reducing government of Obama.

  12. Oh, wait! This was one of those “Well, at least Christians aren’t as bad as the muslims!” moments, wasn’t it?
    Carry on!

  13. Re: “Cardinal Raymond Burke, a Rome-based prelate known as an outspoken conservative and critic of Pope Francis’ reformist approach, said in an interview on Wednesday (July 20) that Islam is ‘fundamentally a form of government.'”

    Hmm. Burke’s own Church is “fundamentally a form of government,” with its seat in the independent state of the Vatican. Oh, and let’s not forget how his Church actually places itself above governments (Unam sanctam, anyone?).

    Yep, sure looks like a case of the pot calling the kettle black. That’d make Burke a hypocrite … even though his own Jesus clearly and unambiguously forbid him ever to be hypocritical. Woops!

  14. No, just pointing out the cognitive dissonance.

    If it ever happens that Muslims gain ascendancy in this country and sodomites end up as some of their first victims, said sodomites will be yelling, “But it’s those Chri-i-i-stians who are to blame,” as they are being tossed to their deaths.

    Proof: Orlando.

    BTW, I noticed that the murderer in Nice, France, had a boyfriend. I sense a pattern.

  15. You world is fairly twisted. You are welcome to it.

  16. “It’s a simple fact that Muslim percentage of the population and Sharia law correlate always and everywhere.”

    Yet none is to be found in the US. Muslim populations here are downright peaceful supportive of democracy and religious freedom. Go figure.

    Its a simple fact that nothing intelligent or sane comes from demonizing an entire religion. All you are doing is parroting the nonsense spewed by Islamicists. People like yourself are some of the best propaganda support groups like I-S can count on. There are two enemies. The religious extremists and their unwitting stooges.

  17. It could only happen if we undermine things like the separation of church and state/free exercise of religion. Now which group of people have the political clout to do such things? Christian fundamentalists! They are already passing laws in the country for their version of Sharia, as seen in North Carolina and. Indiana. Enshrining religious dogma into law as a way to attack people.

    The only way we can become a Sharia state is if Dominionist types get their way and demolish our religious freedoms first. Then anyone can impose religious based repression upon the nation.

    Lets face it Christian fundies have no business talking about the threat of Sharia and Islamicism. They want theocracy. Just their type.

  18. The world isn’t mine, but I agree the world is twisted. And it just so happens to be the same world you inhabit.

    The reason the world is twisted, of course, is because the majority of people have lost all use of their reason; thus, we end up with sodomites who run over people with trucks or murder people in cold blood in “gay” bars, not to mention millions of abortions, et cetera, et cetera.

    But that’s the world you, and those who think like you, choose.

    For rational people, it’s difficult to comprehend, but it’s a spiritual malaise.

  19. Thank you for pointing out the horrific compromises and attacks on the liberties we have done in the past in the name of security. One founding father described the silliness of such positions succinctly,

    “Those who trade freedom for security, deserve neither” Benjamin Franklin.

    If you are destroying our democratic way of life in the name of safety, you have nothing worth saving.

  20. Two ignorant cretins agreeing on something is hardly much of a confirmation of facts.

  21. Funny, that is exactly what I would say about people who write things like, “thus, we end up with sodomites who run over people with trucks or murder people in cold blood in “gay” bars,”

  22. Of course you would say that, because you’re part of the problem. Now, you won’t admit that, but you are.

    Then multiply that by millions, and you end up with a country that will fall because the people refuse to apply the proper remedies to what is wrong with them.

    Islam is gaining ascendancy in Europe and North America, and in those places were the majority of people have become secularized, those countries will fall because they don’t have a means to withstand the onslaught. Their secularism won’t permit it.

    Our country will also fall, and for the same reasons.

    The normal family is the bedrock of a country: father, mother, children, no divorce, no contraception, no abortion, no “gay” marriage, no fornication.

    A country that eschews the normal family, eschews sanity and will fall.

    History is replete with examples.

  23. Despite your claim, there are Muslim enclaves in the U.S. where within the immediate community, there is a definite attempt by Muslims to impose Sharia Law. Detroit and its environs are a specific example of this.

  24. I tend to agree with you on the issues, but even among Christians, the model of a strong family is often non-existent. The rather casual approach to marriage by many Christians is deplorable, and current studies suggest that young adult Christians today are not married to the idea of lifelong commitment in marriage. We also need to set our own house in order.

  25. Hardly a substantive refutation.

  26. Americans use to say the same thing about Catholics too, which is why American Catholic politicians had a hard time running for President of the US.

  27. White patriots are of the view that the Jews have opened up Europe for the non Whites. Jew Soros and Barbara Spectre have often been quoted by these patriots.

  28. Burke is not a “prominent” cardinal. The dishonest media drag him out of obscurity to create a false perception of that this pope is “liberal.”

  29. Any Catholic who uses the phrase “Abrahamic faiths” is either a 5th columnist or illiterate. Same goes for “Judeo-Christian”. The central tenets of the so-called Abrahamic faiths are mutually exclusive and antagonistic.

  30. It was hardly a substantive post I responded to.

  31. Except it isn’t happening.

    At best sharia law here is being treated like rabbinical law in Haredi enclaves. A form of voluntary arbitration. Not the junk going on in dictatorships.

    People who understand and defend the first Amendment have nothing to fear. As long as we continue upholding both free exercise of religion and separation of church and state, there is little religious extremists can do.

    But of course people who rail against secularism and secular government can see a problem here. They have no trouble in destroying religious freedom and having one faith dominate our nation. They just want it to be theirs.

    You want to avoid Islamic domination, you gave to oppose all religious domination.

  32. It’s why there are now weekly beheadings in downtown Brooklyn, Dearborn, and Jersey City. 🙂

  33. Yes he did. One of the closest margins of winning until GWB in 2000. Sectarian prejudice figured largely in Nixon’s campaign.

  34. Apparently you haven’t noticed that the nations of the world most accepting of gay people, including their marriages, generally rank highest in every measure of human achievement, prosperity, and general well-being ~ while nations treating gay people with vile contempt generally rank lowest in those measures. (Even within the United States a similar correlation can be seen, to some degree, among the states.)

  35. Apparently you haven’t noticed that the nations of the world most accepting of gay people, including their marriages, generally rank highest in every measure of human achievement, prosperity, and general well-being…

    Yes. All that means is that narcissistic, wealthy societies (generally, “Western” societies) tend to devolve into corruption when they become soft and self indulgent.

    Then they fall.

    And when they fall, they lose their “achievement(s), prosperity, and general well-being.”

    The ancient Romans were quite accepting of “gay” people.

    But history always repeats itself.

    Sweden, a model of the type of country you apparently favor, at one time had the highest suicide rate in the “developed” world.

    The rate has gone down in recent years. Reason? The influx of non-Swedes from countries you despise. They don’t commit suicide in the numbers the natural Swedes do, so the percentages have gone down.

    ETA: The reason why the self-indulgent, inward-looking, enlightened countries, so-called, will fall is because they do not have any bulwark against the onslaught of those enemies who are motivated by a common antipathy to such societies.

    Their secularism does not permit them.

    And their enemies don’t play by their rules. Hence, the Islamisation of Europe will continue and eventually spread to North America, where the prosperous masses will not be able to stop it.

    The only force that has ever stopped the advance of Islam is the Catholic Church, but secular societies are inimical to that institution, thus ensuring their downfall.

  36. Consider Dearborn, Michigan for one. We know there are scores more less known and definable for they are often much smaller and hidden from view
    conclaves where no USA authorities tread. Scary and frightening indeed!
    Educate yourselves. Such Islamic conclaves here in the USA do exist and
    threaten our democracy.

  37. Except no other major religion proposes or has a Sharia law component today and we there are those among our leaders today who no longer honor the Constitution as it was written and intended. There is MUCH to fear from such

  38. Christians do not consider themselves of this world. There is no political component of the faith that requires Christians to kill in the name of their God ( though there have been extremists in
    the past where this happened in far smaller numbers but were and are never condoned by the Faith)
    Get a copy of the Qu’ran and become educated in historical fact. Look at the world today, the here and now, and witness the difference between Christianity’s attempts to evangelize and
    those of Islam. The former is done with the Bible and reason while the latter is always going
    to involve violence. Christians are taught to love one another while Muslims are charged with subduing the “infidel” with force of death if necessary. Get educated!

  39. This is very true, however, deadly rivalry among tribes was a way of life on the continent. BUT it didn’t result in the decimation of an opposing tribe. Captives were tortured or killed outright or accepted into the tribe to bring new ideas and blood to the community. These warring tribes NEVER crossed an ocean in order force religion upon natives. They never transported disease either.

  40. The pope is not a “socialist” if you look at the men he’s appointed in the Vatican like former Fox News reporter, Greg Burke, as head of his press office. “Chaplain of the Knights of Malta, a Rome-based charitable order” is NOT a “prominent role.”

  41. Its (sic) a simple fact that nothing intelligent or sane comes from demonizing an entire religion.

    Which is exactly what you do with Christianity in general, and Catholicism in particular.

    The “stooges” are those who, like yourself, blind yourselves to something that is self evident and that everyone around you can see.

    Such stooges are the first to fall victim to their blindness.

  42. Your vision of history is blinkered, to say the least. Extremists? How about the Catholics and Protestants a slaughtering each other for 250 years, or slaughtering the Jews, or slaughtering Muslims.


  43. The only thing I have a shaded view against is hypocrisy. The Founders viewed “Papism” to be as great a threat as the right wing views Islam today. John Jay and Thomas Jefferson in particular. In the mid-1770’s Britain’s favorable treatment of the mostly Catholic Quebecois after the Seven Years/French and Indian War incensed the American colonists so much they were afraid the Papists would overrun New England. Burke knows or should know all of this, he just doesn’t care because he has to ally himself with the evangelical talking points of “America is a Christian nation,” as he sees his side losing the culture wars.
    You are the one asserting that some kind of magic mathematical balance in one country equals Islamic totalitarianism , you provide the evidence. I’m skeptical of claims like this coming from Burke because they’re identical to the same unproven claims coming from anti-Islam groups for the last 15 years. Islamist terrorism is a real threat, but there’s a lot of nonsense out there.

  44. All countries, all civilizations, sooner or later fall. That’s what they do.

    But obviously, you need to blame gay people.

    So please do.

  45. “Except no other major religion proposes or has a Sharia law component today ”

    Completely untrue. One has merely to see the Orwellian titled “First Amendment Defense Act”, which proposes to turn fundamentalist Christian bigotry as a pretense to overrule civil liberties of everyone.

    Christians are already trying to make their beliefs above the considerations of rules law and personal liberties of others.

    The people most vociferous about “Sharia law” here are the ones who already haven’t regard for religious freedom. People who want their own version of religious theocratic domination.

  46. Sarcasm is lost here. 🙁

    Muslim neighborhoods here are fairly well off, safe, working to middle class areas.They are also vocal as hell to denounce terrorism.

    Why is that? We don’t automatically treat Muslim immigrants like garbage as matter of course like Europeans. This nation has clearly defined religious freedom.

    You aren’t going to save the nation by trashing its foundations. Religious freedom isn’t just for the faiths that are popular. They are most important to the ones which are despised.

  47. Gary has gone bye bye. Time to take your meds.

  48. All countries, all civilizations, sooner or later fall. That’s what they do.
    But obviously you need to blame Christians.

  49. Of course you would say that, because YOU and your fellow traveler dominionists are part of the problem.

    Funny how gay people are always responsible for the bad behavior of heterosexuals. It’s almost like there is no such thing as personal responsibility. Or reading history. Or current economics.

  50. Nah I just don’t like enabling the delusional.

  51. “Catholics and Protestants slaughtering each other for 250 years”?
    Really? Can you talk facts and not fiction? Yes, we have the English
    reformation, etc but that occurred long time ago and there is no
    actual slaughter of either Jews or Muslims that today is occurring nor
    was the slaughter of Jews in WWII attributed to either religious party.
    Get with the facts and stop the bigotry! Get educated!

  52. Well, if you need to put words into my mouth to make your point, please do.

  53. I would suggest you Google catholic Protestant wars before you presume to tell me to educated.

  54. “Islam is a religion like the Catholic faith or the Jewish faith.”

    Burke is of the belief that Romance Catholicism is the one , true Christian Church, not merely the denomination, or version of Christianity that it is. In his mind, evangelicals, mainline Protestants and all other Protestants are heretics on their way to hell in the proverbial handbasket.

    I wonder how many of you who are terrified of Muslim folks are personally acquainted with any? Minneapolis, my home, is also home to the largest Somali population in the US. Most Somalis are Muslim and the folks I’ve gotten to know are kind and decent people. They meet up with racists and religionists like Burke and some of you commenters on occasion. They don’t deserve to be the recipient of your fears and ignorance any more than they deserve Burke’s stupidity, ignorance and arrogance.

    These dishonest Trumpian lies about “no go zones” need to stop. Trump lied about this in England and English law enforcement flatly stated that was a lie, that there are no places they are afraid to go. Recent immigrants always congregate in specific areas, just as the Italians, Germans, Hmong, and Japanese did. I’ve enjoyed walking through the Somali part of Minneapolis many times. Little Mogadishu has wonderful shops and friendly shop keepers.

    There are millions of absurd stories flying through the ether. Ignore the stories and think about what you, personally, know. The rest is simply noise.

  55. The author cannot let one sentence about Cardinal Burke pass without breathlessly noting that ‘controversy’ surrounds him. I hope he also notes former President Bill Clinton, disbarred, impeached adulterer in similar fashion.

    Clearly he has never encountered a ‘widely-disputed’ no-go zone.

    I have.

    There was no dispute about it when I got surrounded, beaten and kicked as a student in Paris in the ’90’s.

    Nor was there any dispute from the nurses who had to clean me up. “You don’t go there,” they warned me. “Stay out of that area.”

    Thinking western men and women are beyond weary with our elite overlords telling us that black is white, and that bad is good. An interesting phenomenon that is giving birth to creatures like the Brexit and Donald J. Trump, republican party nominee.


  56. Like that’s not what you did. I mean… right?

    No one ever said “gay” people were the only ones to blame.

    They share the blame with a whole host of other anti-civilization
    disorders, e.g., fornicators, abortionists, adulterers, thieves, murderers, communists, atheists, secularists (and, yes, bad Catholics), et cetera.

    Your particular focus just happens to be the “gay” part.

  57. As I said, if you need to put words into my mouth, please do.

  58. “Dominionism” is a Protestant thing. I’m not Protestant and therefore don’t subscribe to it.

    “Gay” people are not responsible for the bad behavior of anyone but themselves, and they engage in quite a bit of it.

    “Gay” people are also fond of pointing out the faults of others. They should have no complaints then when their faults are pointed out.

    And they certainly have faults.

  59. that’s right. the apostle peter writes for us that “judgment must begin at the house of God…”

  60. look at sodom and gomorrah, also. destroyed by brimstone and fire. God destroyed that wicked society. sin was at its highest peak, i.e. the fullness of the amorites had come in.

  61. The pilgrims crossed the Atlantic so that they could worship God as they choose, not the way the church of England dictate or the Dutch Netherlands where they were for ten years.

  62. We do not worship the same God. Muslims & Jews do not worship God in 3 Persons.

  63. MUNICH (AP) — An 18-year-old German-Iranian man opened fire in a crowded Munich shopping mall and a nearby McDonald’s Friday night, killing nine people and wounding 16 others before killing himself, the chief of police in the Bavarian capital said Saturday.

    I’m sure he was an Iranian Christian.

  64. If any religion has the whip hand, it will use it. That applies to Buddhists in Myanmar, to Muslims in Muslim majority countries and it certainly applied to Christians in the past. Even Anglicans in England had an Occasional Conformity Act, to force non-Anglicans to attend the local parish church occasionally. This, of course, broke down, and was replaced the idea of religious toleration, something that is codified in the American Bill of Rights.

    The best protection against religious oppression is a secular state, which gives all beliefs, whether religious or not, equal treatment.

  65. Finally, a bit of good sense from a cleric. Mostly they’re so anxious to be “relevant” by being politically correct that they outright betray Christianity.

  66. according to the Church Jesus is the second person of a triune Godhead and God-incarnate.

    the talmud says Jesus Christ was not the messiah, he was a very naughty boy. So naughty he is drowning in boiling s!*t eternally

    Irreconcilable. QED

  67. “Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.”

  68. “Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.” And such is our secular education system of teaching history,for they do not.

  69. Quite the contrary. All worship the same God. They just have different opinions about him/her/it/them.

  70. Muslim populations here are downright peaceful supportive of democracy and religious freedom. Go figure.

    Muslims are a small minority in the US. They support religious tolerance now because it is necessary for their minority to grow toward a majority. If they become a majority they’ll use democracy one last time to replace democracy with religious rule, doing away with religious tolerance as well. Their religion requires it. This is not particularly hard to understand.

  71. I don’t understand your comment. Jesus the Christ is the second person of the godhead. Yes, God exists in three persons – God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Can we agree on that?

    But Jesus the Christ is Israel’s Messiah. That’s the only one. There are no other ones. Christ fulfilled all the Old Testament prophecies concerning him. The Pharisees and Sadducees, priests, scribes, doctors of the law, etc. should have known since they studied the Old Testament immensely. For awhile, I thought they did but it is written, ” Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known *it*, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory…”

    The Jews rejected Christ because he did not spank the Roman Empire and deliver Israel physically. Israel did not understand that Jesus came to bring personal salvation, not physical deliverance. When he comes back to the earth, as shown in Zechariah Ch. 14, with us saints with him, then Israel will be delivered physically. Until then, God is calling out the ekklesia, the church, and individual Jews are becoming Christians.

    Hope this helps!

  72. You are parroting exactly what they said about Catholic immigrants, Jews, Latinos, pretty much every immigrant group these days from the developing world in general. Muslim communities have been here for quite a while. Unlike Europe, we have one of the largest Muslim convert communities in the world. Yet the facts don’t bear out one iota of what you are saying.

    As I see it, Americans like yourself are the ones seeking to replace democracy. You are the one who thinks free exercise of religion and separation of church and state are a problem. If you uphold our freedoms, there is nothing one ever has to worry about with a religious majority.

    There will never be a sane argument starting with “___ religion is evil, therefore its believers must be singled out and attacked.” The whole nonsense of “but their muslims” is just an excuse. A way to show your complete and utter disregard for what makes this country great. Let me give you a hint, its not because our nation is majority white and protestant.

    “This is not particularly hard to understand.”

    Paranoid bigotry and hypocrisy is easy to understand.

  73. I’ll leave that for others to decide.

  74. Yes the FADA is absurd. It amounts to trashing the 1st Amendment and rule of law so Christians of a certain type can treat people like garbage.

    Shall we also discuss the beliefs of Dominionists? People who claim the separation of church and state is a myth and have campaigned to attack the free exercise of religion of others. Sharia by another name.

  75. “We know there are scores more less known and definable for they are often much smaller and hidden from view. Conclaves where no USA authorities tread. Scary and frightening indeed!”

    You have absolutely no clue what you are taking about. There are plenty of distinctly Muslin enclaves in the country. None of them are “scary and frightening” You strike me as someone who has never actually seen these places or met actual Muslims.

    I can tell you from 1st hand experience living in Northern NJ, with a K-12 madrassa no more than 3 blocks from my home, it is not even close to a place where “authorities fear to tread”. My guess is the WalMart in my area, with its numerous checkout ladies in hijabs would put you in an apoplectic coma.

    Maybe you mistake them for the ghettos of Paris or other places where Muslim immigrants are subject to horrific levels of official and implicit discrimination.

  76. The person at the heart of what’s discussed here is the Prophet of Islam, not Cdl Burke. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of history would know, assuming they’re not blinded by progressivism, that he was a highly effective battlefield commander who sacked towns, took hostages, enslaved women, killed innocents and personally oversaw mass executions of Jews and other non-believers. Look it up in their own sources like the Hadiths. That more Christians don’t do what Christ commanded is a tragedy. That more Muslims don’t do what Muhammad commanded is a blessing.

  77. You ignored the salient fact that the book held sacred by those who are jews today reject the Trinity. And place the second person of that Trinity in hell.

  78. The wearing of the hijab is not an indication that the wearer is a Muslim. It is simply a cultural practise which does not apply to all Islamic nations. For example, the women news readers on Al-Jazeera, the Arabic TV channel, do not wear any head covering at all because it is not part of the culture in that region of the Muslim world.

  79. You took the words right off my page! Minneapolis has many areas that are unsafe to go in, even though the media and “law” enforcement will deny it.

  80. Your ignorance as to current news is duly noted. They even discussed the attempt at Christian Sharia in at least 2 articles on this site.

  81. What happened to the post that discussed Minneapolis and its Little Mogadishu? The whole no-go area thing has always been a myth.

  82. So you use myth as your support. Of course if you bothered to read the Bible, you would know the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were treating strangers badly and indifference to the poor.

  83. That is the equivalent in saying the yalmulke is not an indication the wearer is Jewish. Of course its wearing is voluntary or sect based. But it is meant as an outside indicator of belonging to that faith.

    Your statement doesn’t make a lick of sense. Are you assuming that all Muslim women wear hijabs? Because that is really obviously ignorant.

  84. “Nor was there any dispute from the nurses who had to clean me up. “You don’t go there,” they warned me. “Stay out of that area.””

    So by the same token, The South Bronx, Compton, East St. Louis, and every other notoriously high crime area is living proof that the inhabitants are trying to destroy the fabric of our democratic society. Because well off people with no urban survival skills are endangered by going there.

    Btw Paris turns its muslim neighborhoods into literal ghettos. Places where people are forced together by widespread institutional discrimination. Europeans don’t do immigration well.

  85. Ironic because these pilgrims began to dictate how their own worshiped shortly after establishing the colony. Even confined or exiled those who didn’t follow their religion based laws. Roger Williams was expelled by the Puritan leaders because they thought that he was spreading “new and dangerous ideas”, so he began the colony of Providence Plantation in 1636 which provided a refuge for religious minorities. Williams was a member of the first Baptist church in America, the First Baptist Church of Providence.

  86. I would suggest you google Tears of Jihad. 60 million Christians killed by Jihad, 80 million Hindus, 10 million Buddhists, 120 million Africans = 270 million.

  87. “Huey Long once said that if totalitarianism came to the U.S. it would come calling itself anti-totalitarianism – or tolerance. Islamophobia is the prefect totalitarian doctrine as it is the first step in outlawing freedom of speech -and therefore freedom itself – in the name of religious tolerance.”

  88. So that makes it true? You need to read a book.

  89. I guess the tinfoil hat always stays on for some people.

  90. I can’t help it if you didn’t read it or understand it’s context. If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest person alive.

  91. You realize Huey Long was a totalitarian at heart. Quoting him about the rise of dictatorship is pure irony.

    Plus your quote is complete BS anyways. Do you have a link with that quote?

  92. You don’t know anyone who lies? Seriously?

    Your link doesn’t work.

    Last time I visited a mosque was a couple months ago. The ladies were very kind. How about you? When was the last time you were in a mosque?

  93. “There is not a single heavily Muslim country in the world that enjoys the liberties of any Western country”.

    Bosnia comes to mind. It is a western country. Malaysia I believe is democratic. The jury is out on Turkey right now. Maybe if they can have a successor to Erdogan without someone getting shot. 🙂

  94. I live in a neighborhood with a large madrassa within walking distance.
    Lots of take out places catering for Eid fast ending. The police presence is constant. Just try to double park here! (urban North Jersey)

  95. Never mind. I saw it downthread. Her Leftness was tearing you a new one over it.

  96. OK, Bosnia is a possibility.

    Malaysia may have some of the trappings of democracy (as does Turkey), but it definitely does not enjoy all the **liberties** of any western country. Neither did Turkey even before the coup attempt, e.g. there were press restrictions, restrictions on what languages people could speak (!!!!!!!!),, etc.

    Remember, Sharia law is essentially theocratic–Islam definitely does not distinguish betw church & state. (Some Christians would also like to erase that distinction, of course.)

    Once upon a time, Muslim countries led the world in things like science. But that all stopped centuries ago. That’s no accident: it is exceptionally difficult to do science in a country whose culture is not fond of open inquiry, challenging authority, etc.

  97. Spuddie, I think you are right, and the explanation is that in fact, the practices of all religions vary as a function of the culture in which they are situated; thus, the way Muslims understand Islam in (say) Saudi Arabia differs from Turkey, which differs from the US, etc. Same is true of all Xian religions, Judaism, and no doubt eastern religions.

  98. Spuddie, regarding the First Amendment, the problem comes not from people who understand it, but of course, from people who do NOT understand it (or who do understand it, and don’t like it!)–for expl, the folks who defend that nutty clerk in Kentucky as “being restrained in her freedom of religion for refusing to issue marriage certs to gay couples”.

  99. Gee, Spuddie, if Xian fundamentalists (et al) can’t practice their religion and emulate Jesus by treating others with contempt….where are we gonna be?

  100. Of course. People who value religious freedom know that whatever can be used against one religion can be used against any religion. Even their own.

  101. “Christians are taught to love one another”

    ….unless they are Jews, gay, a different sect than you, Muslim, Hindu, animist, Native American, use contraception, believe in a woman’s rights, vote Democrat, preach ecumenism, support secular government…the list goes on.

  102. Turkey fluctuated wildly on the rights front. In the 70’s and 80’s they were very permissive. (The only Muslim country to produce commercial grade pornography). But it swung in the other direction afterwards.

    But even now, at no point can you call Turkey or even Malaysia theocratic nations. Secular autocracy being the more appropriate description.

    One has to bear in mind most of the middle East was rabidly secular from their independence until about the early 1980’s. More Saddam Hussein and Gamal Nasser than mad mullahs. Islamicism as we know it now is far more recent than most will acknowledge. Especially the Islamicists themselves.

  103. Where does “Unity in Christ” leave Jews, Buddhists and other religions? Nowhere. The Pope has said that Catholics should not try to convert Jews. He never mentions that Christian charity has its origins in Jewish charity.

  104. First of all Sodom was not destroyed because of Sodomy. It was destroyed because they forced guests to do something they did not want to do. It’s the force and lack of hospitality that is the problem.

    The Orlando murders were caused by the Christians and Muslims who hate Gay people and the hatred and self-hatred that they cause.. That caused the shooter over the edge. There are not millions of abortion. We could end abortion by giving all women family planning methods.

  105. No, I’ve read that passage from the Hebrew Bible in its original Hebrew and Spuddie is right.

  106. So this priest wants there to be no Jews on the planet, a spiritual genocide, not a physical one.

  107. I don’t think you’re too bright, as demonstrated by your comments.

    To make a silly rebuttal, you totally ignore the tremendous cultural differences between the invading islamists and the native europeans – they are irreconcilable. The islamists have no intention to adopt western ideals and norms.

    I spent a year of my life in Paris, and have returned there many times. Your statement that the islamists are confined to particular neighborhoods is naive. They are now there in such numbers that they are all over the peripherique. They are in state housing not because of institutional discrimination, but because there are NO JOBS there for them.

    They do not come to Europe for work, and that is the issue that most people who share your opinion choose to ignore.

  108. I think you are the kind of fool who walks into a ghetto and blames it’s inhabitants for living in deplorable conditions.

    “They are in state housing not because of institutional discrimination, but because there are NO JOBS there for them.”

    Because of the institutional discrimination. Logic and drawing rational conclusions seems beyond you. Europeans treat their Muslim immigrants (all of immigrants in general) like garbage.

    “They do not come to Europe for work”

    Because there were no guest worker programs there? Riiiiight A lot of them are leaving to get away from the Islamicist mayhem.

    Again, I will reiterate you do not see these conditions in Muslim enclaves in the US. They are fairly well off, peaceful.

    It’s not the religion at play. But why think of complex conditions when you can just give a knee jerk pat, prejudiced answer.

  109. Yes, It is amazing that Kristian fundamentalists have not grasped this.

  110. “Whoever rejects the Son, rejects the Father. So they cannot possibly worship the same God.” Are you saying that Jews don’t worship the same God as Chistians even though he was our God first and Jesus was a Jew? The Pope doesn’t agree with you.


  112. It was once thought that Irish Catholic enclaves threatened our democracy and Jewish enclaves were even more of a threat. Religious and ethnic groups usually start out living in enclaves.

  113. The Poles and other Christians cooperated with the Nazis during The Holocaust. Jews who survived the Holocaust were killed by Catholic Poles and other Christians. Martin Luther’s On the Jews and their Lies lead directly to Kristallnacht

  114. Lucille, read your Bible. Abraham is the father of Ishamel who is the father of Islam.

  115. Good one! I’ll remember this and use it as appropriate.

    In fact, I’d argue that the Jewish god is definitely not the same as the Xian god.

  116. No we cannot agree on that. Jews believe in one God. Jesus is not Israel’s Messiah and Christ is not his last name. Jesus didn’t fulfill any other what you call the “Old Testament” prophecies. Nothing happened that supposed to happen when the Messiah came happened. You have to read the “Old” Testament backward already believing in Jesus to find confirmation of the prophecies. Jews thought that the Messiah should bring universal peace, love and understanding to the entire world no just Israel. It is true that Jews never believed the Messiah was a personal savior. I went to synagagouge this past weekend. I was very aware of the prayers that said “but for you God, we have no savior. When God is your savior, you don’t need another savior. Very few individual Jews are becoming Christians. The ones who do are deluded and don’t know much about Judaism. It seems to me that ultimate goal is to convert all Jews. If you had your way. There wouldn’t be a single Jew left on the planet. That is at least an attempt at spiritual genocide. You have no right to criticize the Nazis.

  117. Nevertheless, when we hear of violence directed at large numbers of civilians, who has a first thought “it’s those damn Amish again” or “thos demned Mormons” or “damned Buddhists” or……

    Also, and very important, are you familiar with the Islamic concept of taqiyyah?

  118. It is true that Jews don’t believe in the trinity, but I don’t know you get the idea that Jesus is now In Hell. Please tell me exactly where the Talmud say that, because I sincerely doubt it. Especially since you believe that the Jews who wee murdered in the Holocaust are now in Hell.

  119. Many of the founders of this country were Deists. Although, there was a lot of anti-Catholicism in this country.

  120. They didn’t give that privilege to non-Puritans though.

  121. We still have not had a Jewish president.

  122. So George Soros doesn’t get a name, because he is Jewish. Most Jews are Liberal Democrats in the FDR tradition. These people are not patriots, they are White Supremacists and don’t consider Jews to be white. They wouldn’t want you either Mehmood.

  123. you can google the Jesus-in-hell reference, or ask a rabbi.
    I am ignoring your last sentence as it’s pure hysteria.

  124. You know as well as I do that in this country “its those damn _____” is going to have a racial and or ethnic group in the blank.

    When you hear of mass scale violence by islamicists outside of the US and Europe, the victims are typically Muslims

    You know taqiyya only applies when one is in fear for their lives. If anything it is an anti martyrdom concept. One simply denies their faith in public out of persecution, rather than die for it.

    There is a Jewish version of it as well. All rules of the religion can be suspended for the interests of practical survival.

    Islamaphobes like to pretend it means Muslims will lie to anyone in Allah’s name. Its silly because “lying for the lord” is fairly common among fundamentalist Christians.

  125. Spuddie,

    If you read the Bible, you would know that the homosexuals of the twin cities wanted to have sex with the angels that visited Lot (Abram’s nephew). They wanted sex so bad that Lot offered his daughters. To help out Lot, the angels blinded the homosexuals. Lot and his wife and daughters got out but the wife looked back and became a pillar of salt.

    Let’s be honest! Tell the truth.

  126. I did not criticize the Nazis. Nor do I sympathize with them. And you and those like you better read Zechariah Ch. 13 where it implies that only 1/3 of the Jewish people are going to make it through the purification process. I see why.

    “And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

    “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.”

    Messianic Jews are not deluded. Many Jews are coming to faith in Christ. There is no pride in being a Jew. Jews and gentiles alike are sinners and need a saviour.

    Remember Lucifer’s downfall, now Satan, was that he was lifted up in pride. And Pharaoh & Co were all drowned in the Red Sea. Why? Pride.

  127. I got that that last sentence from a Black Baptist minster.

  128. That is not true that Christians cooperated with the Nazis during the Holocaust. Corrie ten Boom and her father Casper, sister Betsy, nephew Kik and family hid Jews in their home and watch repair shop. All were caught and arrested and sent to concentration camps. Only Corrie made it out alive. The rest died.

    And the German pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a shining example of a Christian who helped the Jews with his underground movement. For his love and work as a anti-Nazi dissident, he was hanged one month before U.S. liberation of the camp where he was.

    Please get your facts straight.

  129. the only ones in hell are the people that have rejected Jesus Christ as savior.

  130. It doesn’t say anything about the Messiah at all,let alone Jesus. I would like some statistics on that. Do you realize that Jews don’t believe in Original Sin? Now you’re comparing Jews to Satan and Pharaoh? I don’t think that’s going to convert many Jews. Jews have a right to define who and what Jews are and you don’t get to tell us what a Jew is.

  131. Pilgrims and puritans are not the same group of people.

  132. You say that because you didn’t bother to read that part of the Bible. You missed the part about marked coins and indifference to the poor.

    If you came away from that story as an admonishment of homosexuality, you missed the entire point. You are relying on centuries of selective reading which completely avoided the context and much of the text. Plus you have to be a complete brain donor to equate gang rape with anything done between consenting adults.

    Treating strangers badly was one of the worst taboos of the ancient world. Many Greek myths are practically a treatise on how important it was in ancient cultures.

    Get a clue.

  133. You seem to have a problem with critical thinking.

    Christianity follows on from Judaism. Christianity is Judaism Ver 2.0. Jesus never changed historical roles of any old testament folk. He venerated them. He is actually fulfilling the Jewish faith’s belief in a MESSIAH. Jesus is the messiah. So yes Jews and Christians worship the same God, BUT JEWS HAVE REJECTED THE MESSIAH and his new covenant! (which is a serious problem for jews) Jesus was divine, performed miracles, rose from the dead.

    Whereas islam is just a fraud made out of wholecloth where roles are changed to fit a frauds narrative. Their leader is a human, a bloodthirsty evil one. islam has no more legitimacy than david koresh’s branch davidians or the heavens gate cult. (btw the pope is just another man with no special talents, who can read and think like any other human)

  134. Many O.T prophecies were fulfilled by Christ.

    Born in Bethlehem as prophesied in Micah. Isaiah wrote that a virgin shall give birth. Lamentations tells us that “Rachel would be weeping for her children …” (You know that King Herod had all children 2 years old and under killed, trying to kill the baby Jesus.) Psalm 22 details the rejection of Christ by the Jewish religious leaders of his day – Pharisees and Sadducees, elders, scribes, doctors of the law – and, most importantly, his death on the cross at the hands of the Roman authorities. Also, Isaiah Ch. 53 details the Messiah – Christ – perfectly. Psalm 16, I believe, details Christ resurrected from the dead as written by King David “thou shalt not leave my soul in sheol; thou shalt not allow thine Holy One to see corruption…”

    Yes, Christ went down to hell (sheol and hades) to preach the gospel, i.e. I am He. The one that the righteous Abram, Noah, and others burnt animal sacrifices in anticipation of his coming. They were in sheol. But the unrighteous ones, who did not look forward to the coming Messiah, were in hades. He preached unto them, also. Christ rose from the grave in 3 days. And 40 days later when he back to heaven to be seated at the right hand of the Father, scriptures read that “he led captivity captive…” In other words, he took those that were down in sheol with him. Now hell is composed of just hades.

  135. why would any one reject the trinity when in the beginning God said, let us make man in our image, after our kind? this is deity talking among themselves.

  136. if a person did not belong to the Anglican church, he or she was not accepted, i heard, when I visited Williamsburg, VA.

  137. i’m sorry but i’m not understanding you at all. do you not know that adam and eve introduced sin into the world when eve was deceived by the snake and adam transgressed eating the forbidden fruit that God had told the two to not eat the fruit of a particular tree?

  138. gang rape with anything done between consenting adults????? Are you kidding me?

    1And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; 2And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. 3And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. 4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 8Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. 9And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. 10But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. 11And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

  139. You are saying the attempt to gang rape angels is the equivalent of consensual homosexual relations?

    Did you read the passage? Did you read the ones before that one?

    Doesn’t look that way.

  140. What are you talking about? I don’t understand. What does “WE WANT TO KNOW THEM” mean to you? In the original language – Hebrew?

  141. You are describing a demand for gang rape. “We want”, not “you and me, let’s..”.

    As I said before. All this demonstrates is you want to use religion as an excuse for bigotry against gays. We both agree on that.

  142. Then stop pretending the Bible sanctions bigotry.

  143. A few thots:

    1. You may well be correct about the circumstances in which taqiyyah is *supposed* to apply, but I suspect strongly that a, let us say, incomplete understanding of that concept (et al) is quite common among Muslims.

    2. Re your second sentence: does that apply to all the folks who’ve been murdered in the past year in France? The victims of the British transport attack about 8 years ago? Spanish transport victims? ETC ETC ETC.

    3. FYI (and as a minor issue), my impression is that Mormons lead the way in “lying for the lord”. There is certainly a large amount of misunderstanding of true Xian principles among fundamentalist “Christians”.

    4. There is a (small) streak of violence among fundamentalist (self-described) Christians, and an even smaller streak of violence among Orthodox Jews (esp. in Israel). Why is so much violence associated with Islam, even if one makes the distinction that the perps are “Islamicists” or “political Muslims” or some such designation?

  144. P.S.: If you look at my comments on Islam (even on this page alone), I think–I hope–you will see that I am not a “mindless” “Islamophobe” (poor word). I try hard to understand Islam, I do not regard all Muslims as terrorists, I do not believe or suggest that their First Amendment rights should be restricted in any way, etc.

  145. 1. I think there is probably a good deal exaggeration on this issue among extremists on all sides.

    2. I did say “outside of Europe and the US”. Europe is a soft target. Close to the middle East, has large ghettos of Muslim immigrants. Terrorists go for targets of opportunity. In this case they are getting more and more simple in their plans and efforts.

    3. IMO the only true Christian idea out there is Christians don’t agree with each other on much if anything.

    4.Look at the places the majority of Muslims live in. They are almost entirely post colonial autocratic states. Dictatorships where leaders will have thousands of radical madrassas but not a single free newspaper. Places where violence, especially religious inspired, serves a political purpose. Islamicism is recent in nature.

    During the cold war Arab terrorists were mostly radical and secular. Fatah in the West Bank is the last remnants of these groups. Violence was always political. But religion enables it that much more. Again look at the relative peace among American Muslims. We have more Muslim converts than Europe does, yet no extended history of terrorism by them.

    The problem with looking only at the religion is it promotes shallow thinking and glosses over the relevant details.

  146. Yes, there are examples of individuals who saved Jews, but they were the minority. Yes, I also know about Bonhoeffer too, I repeat they were a small number of individuals. In Poland Christians not only cooperated with Nazis. After the war ended, Poles killed returning Jews who had managed to survive. Read Jan Gross’s books. Get your facts straight and don’t assume the actions of rare brave individuals represent the majority of Christians, because they don’t.

  147. Regarding your point # 4 above, do you mean places like….Holland? Denmark? France?

    I will do some research re the liberty situation in Indonesia. But as a general matter: lots of folks of all religious persuasions do not value liberty, indeed, are afraid of it. Think places like Russia; even in the US, clearly fundamentalist “Christians”, even plenty of Catholics, are afraid of liberty. And that seems to me to be especially true of Muslims.

    And that may well be because liberty is a scary proposition: who tells you how to behave? who tells you what to think? And what entitles my neighbor do as he pleases, outragoeus things that disgust and frighten me?

  148. No, I don’t have a problem with critical thinking. Christianity is not Judaism 2.0. What you are talking about is called Supercessionism. No, Jesus is not the Messiah. He never fulfilled the prophecies he was suppose to fulfill. The world should be full of peace, love and understanding if Jesus were the Messiah. Jews have never believed the Messiah was divine. He has not risen from the dead. You have faith, but not critical thinking. That period of time was full of so-called miracle workers. You believe out of faith, not critical thinking. When I go to synagogue, there is more than one prayer that says “but for you, God we have no savior.”. The “old” covenant is still valid and in place.

  149. Which means that all Jews are in Hell, including all Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust.

  150. You all believe it. You’re just not willing to state it out loud.

  151. That’s my point. You can’t understand anyone who doesn’t agree with you. To Jews it means that humans now have a chance to choose between good and evil.

  152. No, they have all been taken out of context. but you can’t see that because you are starting out already believing in Jesus. It doesn’t matter, because the Messiah was supposed to bring permanent peace and brotherhood and the end of poverty. None of which has happened.

    Jews don’t consider the “New” testament part of their bible. So don’t quote it at me. Hades is a Greek version of Hell. The idea of Jesus going down to Sheol is just proof that the “New” Testament is anti-jewish and antisemitic. It makes me sick to my stomach.

  153. You are full of it. The Nazis simply took the centuries of anti-semitic dogma and turned it into national policy.

    “Nazi Germany was both a product of, and established in, Christian Europe.”

    “Regardless of proclamations and violence against Jewry, Hitler’s regime was legitimised by various Christian churches from the start.”

  154. Are Holland, Denmark or France countries where the majority of Muslims live? I was referring to the Middle East, North Africa and South Asia.

    As for being scared of liberty, I don’t buy it. Nobody is scared of liberty. They are scared of losing control. There are only 2 kinds of people who support dictatorship:
    1. People who benefit directly from the regime
    2. Fools who think they are the 1st category, but aren’t.

    Fundamentalism is all about declaring oneself to be superior to others. That all must do as they say because God says so. Such a disregard for the lives of other people makes it difficult to support the idea that other people are equals to them.

    Less fear of liberty than it is fear of ceding power to others. Fear of sharing. Fear of losing an undue privilege one has exerted over others in the past. Its not about Christianity or Islam. Its about the political. Its about what people do with power or how they get it.

  155. I did google Jesus in Hell and everything came from the New Testament not the Talmud.

  156. For the good of the nation we need to nuke the states with more confederate flags than public schools. 🙂

  157. You’re being obtuse and we both know it. Troll off.

  158. The expression, “separation of Church and State” is not a Constitutional phrase; it is an excerpt from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a group of Danbury, Conn. Baptists who were in fear of the government because Baptists were not looked upon with much kindness in the early part of our National history (e.g. Roger Williams). Jefferson’s language was meant to reassure the Baptists that they had nothing to fear from the government, not that expressions of felicity about God should be banned from government pronouncements. No reputable constitutional scholar refutes this.

  159. I did google Jesus in Hell and the research results were all from the “New” Testament.

  160. Actually it comes from Roger Williams about a century earlier. The concept is still the undisputed shorthand for the establishment clause by reputable scholars.

    None of that disputes the repugnant purpose of FADA is to make sectarian based discrimination above consideration of rule of law. Establishment of religion above all other considerations. Precisely the sort of thing the first amendment was meant to prevent.

  161. Ask your rabbi to show you the relevant bits.

  162. If Jesus loved me, he would “save” me even if I didn’t believe in him. Your idea of Jesus’s love is conditional love. I believe that God loves us unconditionally.

  163. Don’t you know that there are multiple interpretations of any Hebrew Bible verse?

  164. Gee, Spuddie, you are such a smart and knowledgeable guy, I don’t fully understand why you participate here. I mean, what is there for you to learn?

    A basic question for you: where do you get your info? What kinds of stuff do you read (I’m thinkg mainly of books, not media)? Is your background in behavior?

    (Have you read Haidt, for example?)

    For now, I’ll address only 1 of your comments: “I don’t buy it”. No? Look around at Russia and similar countries, where lots of folks yearn for the good old days of Stalin et al. Listen to what imams–and their followers– say about the dangers of liberty in Western countries.

    “I don’;t buy it” about liberty is, I’ve found, unfortunately, a common attitude among idealists who themselves do value liberty. Look around you, observe critically…for expl, spend some time listening to right-wing Krackpot radio. In the past I’ve spent considerable time listening to it, and I’ve learned a lot about the personalities of those folks. All you have to do is listen and they reveal themselves very plainly.

    And of course, my point is that it is not only familiar right-wing types who are that way. There are plenty of far-left folks like that, too (tho I suspect far fewer than right-wingers).

    Also, you have it partly right about fundamentalism, but there are lots of factors at work there.

  165. I am going to just let that stuff slide and blame it in miscommunication on my part.

    If you look at the ultra right wing rhetoric here you see the appeal to personal power. Make America a place where white Christians have power over others. Those not among that group shall fear us.

    Elsewhere it is join the nationalist party or follow the dictator so you can wield power over those who do not. Join the Nazi/Ba’ath/Peronista party and benefit. Oppose them and be crushed.

    In communist rhetoric it is make the nation one where the poor and working classes have power over others. Overthrow and execute the Kulaks or be counted among them when we do.

    The appeal of autocracy is the appeal of personal power. Right wing, left wing, fundamentalist, they are just different varieties of the same appeals to question and fear.

    BTW one thing to note that even within Islamicist, it tends to break down on sectarian, ethnic or political lines. In Syria and Iraq, the most effective opponents of ISIS are Muslims themselves. Kurds and Iran backed Shia militias. (Check out for some interesting perspectives on that conflict)

  166. Spuddie, you still have not told me the source of your knowledge about religious extremists, religious motivation, love of liberty, etc.

  167. News, understanding of history of the last century, extremists own rhetoric and actions, history of how nations typically react to extremists. We have a wealth of knowledge at put fingertips for those willing to look.

    The whole “because they are ….” arguments depends on shallow thinking, assumptions, prejudices, and a need for simple answers. The situation is always more complicated than that.

  168. Spuddie, let’s say, for a moment, that you’re right that extremist religion is a way of giving power to adherents.

    If that’s so, explain why Muslim extremists so often blow themselves up, or enter situation in which they are clearly gonna be killed?

    Similarly, why do Mormons stay in the LDS church, which robs them of a lot of their autonomy?

    Similarly, ultra-Orthodox Judaism has a ton of rules, which have the effect of removing autonomy. Why do so few Jews leave ultra-Orthodox Judaism? (ttbomk)

    Why do people join the extremist Catholic organization Opus Dei, which in effect strips them of power (autonomy)?

    Similarly, almost all movements like Naziism or Communism strip followers of personal power. And maybe that tells us a lot about extremist movements: followers cede lots of power to the leaders.

    This discussion is quite enjoyable; among other things it’s helping me think more deeply and (I think) more clearly about things.

  169. Yes, the news media, with their depth and their reporters rewarded for probing and curiosity (“how did that make you feel?”), are a wonderful source of info. And of course historians examine history from a scientific POV, right?

    If you have the stomach for it, listen to Kristian radio for a while. Eventually, the speakers will tell you why they believe as they do. For examplle, one recurring theme is loss of control. I’ve heard them say countless times “imagine you are driving down the road and the steering wheel comes off….”

  170. *There is only one interpretation to biblical scripture.*

  171. For God so loved the
    world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in
    him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    God loves you but he is just and must punish sin. All have sinned, that includes you and me. Everyone of us. Born that way. Jesus is the lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. That is why He came from heaven, to deal with the sin issue. He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. And you being Jewish know what animal sacrifices were all about.

  172. Do you not understand that God intended to save Gentiles as well as Jews? Most prophets wrote of the Messiah that would come in glory. Very few saw the church, which is made of Jew and Gentile, so very few saw Christ suffering or his crucifixion. The church was a mystery. But no more. She has been revealed. Jesus said, “…other sheep I have that are not of this fold, them I must also bring…”

    What kind of God would save one group of people and not other groups?

  173. that is a bunch of bull crap. and for the record there were Jews here in the United States that knew what was going on in Europe but turned a blind eye to what was happening to their fellow brethren. the pot can’t call the kettle black. OK

  174. There is nothing special about being a Jew. Jews were chosen to produce the Messiah, which the tribe of Judah did. Jesus came from that tribe of Jacob. Jews received the oracles of God. The oracles are codified in a book called the Bible. Jews were supposed to be a light to the nations, a light to the gentiles. For awhile, maybe. But sin brought captivity, then God would raise up a deliverer, i.e. Samson, Gideon, Deborah, and others. But the cycle would repeat. Sin – captivity – deliverance. Finally there were 400 silent years that a prophet did not speak until John the Baptist began preaching. The Messiah came on the scene and did the work of bring personal peace with God through his death on a cross, shed blood for all, and resurrection signifying God’s wrath on sin was satisfied. Salvation is a free gift, available to all. “Whosoever call on the name of the Lord shall be saved…” God is no respector of persons. You need Jesus in your heart. Invite him in.

  175. First of all, we need a good translation. Jews have books of commentaries where the commentators were born in places and times and many disagree with each other. My rabbi says that if you are reading the Torah by yourself, you should be arguing with yourself. The Torah has layer upon layer of meaning.

  176. I just don’t buy it. I never thought I was without sin, but I think God knows that and doesn’t punish us too harshly, because he knows we are not perfect.

  177. I do not dispute Williams’ probable use of the phrase, it was certainly in keeping with his line of thinking, but Jefferson’s use of it is annotated as a direct quote in his letter to the Baptists I cited. Williams was more concerned about religious interference in public governance; Jefferson’s comments were meant to reassure a religious minority. Suitable usage.

  178. You are making a distinction which doesn’t really exist or is of little consequence. Roger Williams was concerned with how church and state interact and affect then both. Not only religious interference with public governance but government’s effect on religion. The separation of church and state to protect the integrity of both. Speaking conceptually Jefferson, a man who was not at the constitutional convention, was explaining how that very concept applies to the Danbury Baptists. Speaking practically.

    Either way, the separation of church and state is the driving concept of the establishment clause. One cannot guarantee free exercise of religion without it.

  179. The Messiah is supposed to bring peace, love and understanding to the WHOLE WORLD, JEW AND GENTILE. Of course Jesus has not done that.

  180. Animal sacrifices were replaced by Torah study, prayer and good deeds.

  181. Jews also reject the person you call the Son of God. We don’t even relegate him to a mere prophet. At best he was a mortal like the rest of us, had some good things and bad things to say. Now how is it that you can say we worship the same God as you, but Muslims don’t?

  182. Jesus came to bring personal peace, peace in the heart, peace with God. We have peace with God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    We are no longer under the law, Mosaic law. We are under a new dispensation of time, a different age, in which God works differently with mankind. We have a new covenant, which the prophet Jeremiah spoke about. “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.” You should read about it in the book of Hebrews. Please read Isaiah Ch. 53. Please.

  183. Muslims worship Allah, a moon god. Christians worship the one, true, living God.

  184. A very good book for you to read might be Israel’s New Disciples – Why are so many Jews turning to Jesus? It is written by Julia Fisher, copyright 2008. Monarch Books, Oxford, UK or Grand Rapids, MI.

  185. No, thank you. I’ve heard all the arguments. This doesn’t seem like a valid book. It seems to be for proselytization. If it were written by a real sociologist, I would read it. You might want to learn about Judaism. You don’t understand it at all. You could start with Chaim Potok’s book Wanderings.

    I did look her up and her purpose is to proselytize Jews. She is not a serious author.

  186. God is greater than a rabbi. True Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. God resides in us. When we accept Jesus as Savior, God gives us the Spirit which takes up residence in our hearts. He remains and does not leave as he did in the Old Testament. Again, this is a new dispensation of time.

  187. In the concentration camp, Corrie ten boom led many women to faith in Christ.

  188. What you are talking about is called Superseccionism. The covenant between God and the Jews still exists. That is not what Isaiah meant. You have taken those words out of context. God gave us those laws because he loves us. Why do I need Jesus if I have peace with God through God? Jews find what you say very offensive.

  189. Allah is not a moon God. Allah may have started out as a moon God, Allah has not been a moon god for centuries. The Hebrew God probably started out a one of the local Gods too.

  190. Actually the Enlightenment was very anti-Semitic, especially Voltaire.

  191. Well, of course God is greater than a rabbi. Rabbi means teacher in Hebrew. I say again, that I don’t need Jesus if I Have God. God resides in everyone no matter what their religion is.

  192. As you may already know, pagan worship had a large influence on both Judaism and Christianity. Don’t call Allah a moon god without asking where the Torah’s “El” came from.

  193. And you call yourself a Jew with statements like that? I am shocked. Very surprised. Something is not right here. The Hebrew God is not one of the local gods. God is spirit. His names are varied, i.e. El Shaddai, Elohim, El Gibbor, El Elyon, Jehovah, Adonai, Yahweh and more. But He is not one of the local gods. There is only one true living God and that is Who we Christians worship.

  194. That is a lie. Abram was called out of the Ur of the Chaldeas, where there was pagan worship, that is true, but God called him out to make of him a great nation. The Judeo Christian faith began with him but not Islam. The heir of promise was from Sarai’s womb not Hagar.

  195. You completely misunderstood what I said. I meant several thousand years ago, before Abraham had developed the concept of one God. I know all those names for God. You don’t worship God, you worship Jesus.

  196. The Christian is closer to God than the Old Testament Jew is. The reason is that the Christian has the Holy Spirit living in him. An unbeliever does not. Christianity is faith based, a personal relationship. Has nothing to do with religion which is a system of works and deeds. Isaiah said that “your works are as filthy rags….” Being a Jew and a woman, I don’t have to tell you what that means. You get the picture.
    Habakkuk said that the just shall live by faith. In the Old Testament, the Spirit came and went. It was put on and off. That is why King David said “Take not thy Holy Spirit from me… ” As for your other comment, “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” That is God the father talking to God the Son, Jesus the Christ.

  197. I find that idea completely appalling and hateful.

  198. Jews do not call the Hebrew Bible the “Old” Testament. I always put Old and New Testament in quotes. Judaism is not an “Old” Testament religion. It is the Hebrew Bible plus Midrash, Torah commentaries and Talmud. Isaiah never said works were bad. He said that empty works were bad. Where is the space in your religion for helping the poor? That is not why David said, “take not they Holy Spirit from me. He was having a crisis. I guess Christians never do. Personally, I think that every person has the Holy Spirit in them even you.

  199. my point is that for those women who died in Christ, they are now in heaven.

  200. yes, David sinned with Bathsheba. he stole a man’s wife, impregnated her, and put the husband on the front of the battle to be killed. yes, he was having a crisis.

    your works are not good enough because they are of the flesh, the old sin nature that you received from Adam. you and I are sinners. the only perfect one is Jesus because he was man and God at the same time. only his blood was perfect enough to wash away sin. he is the lamb of God.

  201. Yes, I understood your point that is why I find it hateful and appalling.

  202. It’s funny to me how often people trot out the fact that Jefferson was absent from the Constitutional Convention. He was in regular correspondence with John Adams, among others, about events, and contributed comments in that correspondence. Further, as President he was qualified to make any remarks he so chose. In his letter to the Danbury Baptists he did not take up the cudgel on behalf of government, because that is not the entity he was attempting to assuage.
    I can appreciate the need to keep separate the powers of government from a particular sect, or denomination, but I reject the notion that the founders intended to bar reverential expression to God from governmental acts and pronouncements. To assert that would indeed be intellectually dishonest, or at the very least a case of self deception.

  203. Suppose I said to you that Jews are closer to God, because they don’t need an intermediary. I assume that you would be offended. I don’t think that. I think we all can be close to God in whatever way works for us. To argue over which religion is closer to God is childish and offensive.

  204. ” I reject the notion that the founders intended to bar reverential expression to God from governmental acts and pronouncements.”

    Categorical pronouncements like that miss important distinctions. It is not the act which is what needs to be considered but the delivery. At no point do sectarian acts of government fly under the establishment clause.

    There are two ways the separation of church is upheld:
    -total omission of religion ; or

    -ecumenism, embracing ALL religions and beliefs.

    If the act is not specific to a given religions’ belief, there is no sense of exclusion or discrimination. Ecumenism is generally the easiest to defend and only offends people with no regard for religious freedom in the first place.

  205. Aaah. Did not know that, but I’m not surprised. Can you give me 2 or 3 expls?

  206. Baxter’s comment above is itself a wonderful expl of “a problem with critical thinking”.

    If you’re a literalist, Judaism I think is VERY tough–murder all those adulterers, all those kids cursing their parents? The OT god created by a bunch of very disturbed individuals is, I think, impossible to respect or love. You can fear it, yes, but love/respect? Hard to do.

    So a bunch of people invented Xianity. Not only does it have a “loving” god, but that god has a human son, on whom you can project those feelings of love you have for your father, or you uncle, or whoever.,..very clever!

  207. David Nirenberg wrote a book called, Anti-Judaism: the Western Tradition. You can just read the chapter on Jews and the Enlightenment.

  208. Lucille, do you put up a Christmas tree every year? Do you put a holly reef on your door? Did you teach your children to believe in Santa Claus. Those are all PAGAN customs.

  209. I have said this before ,but its worth repeating. Jews have replaced animal sacrifice with prayer, Torah study and good deeds. We certainly don’t need a human sacrifice to replace the Temple sacrifices. Most Jews think this is an improvement, although there are some Jews who are waiting for the Temple to be rebuilt. I think our present accommodation is spiritually superior to animal sacrifices. Jews don’t base their whole idea of religion on what happens in the next life. We talk about Olam Habah, the world to come.

    I have read everything you have written and I think that you can’t imagine that anyone can think differently from you. I’m not sure why. There are many religions all over the world and if one of them helps you, good for you, but I don’t assume that is the only way to God. We all have different personalities and different spiritual needs. There is a religion out there somewhere to satisfy everyone. I would have left you alone if you had said Jesus works for me, but maybe not for everybody.

  210. I live in Philadelphia. The city has the oldest Catholic Church in the country. It was built in an alley. It is not a Cathedral. It is an unobtrusive building. Catholics were afraid that an obvious Catholic Church would be burned by the masses.

    No one helped the Jews while the Holocaust was happening. America tuned away a boatload full of Jewish children. The wife of the Secretary of State said, “they’re cute now because they’re children, but they will grow up to be ugly Jews.”

  211. All you say is painfully true; but we made great strides since the times of which you speak. However, during the last 8 years, we have had an administration that has once more divided our Nation into a country where
    politicians have found bigotry and prejudice are conducive to the lives of
    career politicians. It is shameful and retrogressive. We must be very watchful and careful in particular with the direction they are trying to take us in terms of the Constitution. The loss of our freedoms in the name of National Security is an issue most dangerous and delicate for our citizenry. Vote thoughtfully but VOTE!!!

  212. No, Susan, I don’t put up a Christmas tree at all. No, I don’t teach anyone about Santa Claus. I guess you can tell that I don’t believe in fiction or fairy tales or false prophecy …. I only deal in truth.

  213. Susan, Christianity is not a religion. Religion is based upon a system of works. But Christianity, I reiterate, is a relationship with God through his Son Jesus the Christ. It is not works based. Jesus did all the work on his cross. He is our High Priest, our mediator. There is no other way. Your works – helping the poor, feeding the hungry, giving money – do not earn you favor with God because you are doing them, not He. “I am the Lord that is my name and my glory will I not give to another.” If you want to spend eternity with God, then you must come to God on his terms, not yours. By faith, not works. God is sovereign and He has the right to tell you what to do. You have no right to decide life for yourself. You are not the Creator, but a created being. Please study Isaiah Ch. 14 and see how Lucifer fell. It was because of pride. Lucifer was the most beautiful of cherubs, no other was as brilliant and beautiful as he. But he lifted up himself and said he wanted to be like God.
    We are different personalities but have the same spiritual need and that is for a savior. God is holy and man is unholy. Sin must be dealt with. Prayer is fine but in your current state, God does not hear your prayers. As for Torah study, that is fine, but to reject what else God has spoken, is foolishness.

  214. MKT Thompson For President
    American Peoples Action Party
    The 1952 law specifically bans and not religion but act to overthrow the Constitution. Sharia law is the embodiment of Islam. All Musilmen must adhere to. Therefore, I will round up and deport all refugees.

  215. Lucille, get real. The only people who need saving are those who believe nonsense like the existence of god, soul, afterlife, etc etc.

  216. It seems to me that Obama is moderate individual who never seems to get passionate about anything. I blame the GOP for the last eight years.

  217. Kettle to Pot, you are not immune from making categorical statements. On the other hand, many secularists reject to any reference to God in putatively “governmental” remarks regardless of their ecumenical quality. This is where I believe the 1st amendment gets flayed.

  218. More than clever; divinely inspired! Youn or I nor any human with natural foibles could make it up let alone keep it going for over 2000 years.
    More than faith is at work here; faith AND reason are the two lungs of

  219. When you are usually talking about secularist complaints it has to do with government acts which are entirely sectarian in nature. Acts which are directly or imply discrimination of other religions and sects. Ecumenism is certainly not applied in most situations.

    Rather than address the obvious issues the typical response is to either handwave it as being unimportant (because it is your faith being supported) or pretend it is an expression of free exercise of religion.

    Fact of the matter is several of our founders were far more disdainful of public religion than most politicians in this day would dare being.

  220. Thirst, on the contrary, not divinely inspired at all, but done by human beings who were (a) hungry for power, or at least, the ability to exert some control over the behavior of others, and (b) who had some knowledge of how to do that. Con artists have existed since the first 2 human beings tried to strike a deal together.

    Those con artists understood certain things about human beings, such as that human beings like to have things explained in a satisfying framework (particularly when it comes to “morality”), like to think life is not random, etc

    The Catholic church, for expl, understands very well well how faith and reason are fierce opponents; hence that well-known Catholic expression “credo absurdum est”–“I believe *because* it is absurd.”

  221. Lucille, I think that would be an excellent question to pose to those “Christians” who hate Muslims, gay people, blacks (well, they used to, anyway, going back 60 years ago, before that became unacceptable), etc.

  222. Where did you find that ” well-known” Catholic expression? In a Chick publication? Absurd indeed!
    Your comments here have nothing to do with the topic. Please take your
    bias and ignorance and troll somewhere else.

  223. On the contrary, my comments have *everything* to do with the topic, since my comments (and others) were started by a Catholic Cardinal speaking nonsense.

    Umm…I guess “A catholic cArdinal speaking nonsense” is tautological, isn’t it? I mean, c’mon: god, afterlife, soul..all nonsense for which there is no evidence–possibly to deflect attention from the fact that the Catholic church–like so many other religions–seeks control over the lives of others, as it has since its inception.

  224. On your final point, I’d love to see an equally balanced panel of historians sort out a list of the Founders they can agree upon and then argue on behalf of those Founders’ perspective on religion, public or otherwise.

  225. I would just love it if people didn’t treat the founders like the apostles and their writings like gospel. There is no one perspective from them. They were a pretty argumentative and divisive bunch. Like all politicians. Personally I find the whole notion of constitutional originalism to be an intellectually dishonest end run around the 14th amendment. We did not try become a great nation until after the civil war.

  226. No question about the fractiousness and conflicting viewpoints of many of the founders’, I suspect that is why there is a certain degree of vagueness at certain points in the Constitution, a function of the rather desperate effort to cobble together a government which was not wholly embraced by any of the delegates, but grudgingly agreed to by the majority. which has further led to the sometimes odd reasoning in Supreme Court decisions. On another point, I’m not surprised that you and I disagree on what constitutes intellectual dishonesty…ahh, the beauty of the American system.

  227. I don’t know where you are getting your theology from, but Christians are supposed to be characterized by the love of God. As I said before God is no respector of persons. Jesus died for us all. All of our sins were placed upon him. His was the vicarious sacrifice for everyone.

    You might want to keep in mind that everyone who says he or she is a Christian may not be. Maybe that is confusing you.

  228. Lucille, I am not confused at all. Perhaps you should read some, or more, or even all, of what I’ve written.

    I’m well-aware that lots of folks want to call themselves Christians, but are not. AAMOF I discovered long ago that the better a person actually emulates Jesus, the less likely they are to tell you they are a Xian, and vice-versa. Sadly, so many of those proclaiming that they are Xians, spit in the face of Jesus by ignoring some of his most elementary commands.

    That said….as an educated person, and one with a lot of science and philosophy in my background, as well as behavioral science, of course I reject the idea thaT “Jesus died for us all”, the existence of god, soul, afterlife, etc.

  229. Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. Fun fact: I know Iraqi Jews who referred to God as Allah, because Arabic was their first language. Allah and El are cognates.

  230. Theologically, it’s more accurate to say that Christianity has a unique definition of God, which includes the notion of the Trinity and the idea that Jesus was divine although he appeared in human form.

    That belief is a departure from Jewish belief, which is strictly monotheistic and rejects the idea of God taking a physical form. The Jewish concept of the Messiah did not include a belief that the Messiah would be anything other than a mortal human being. Islam borrows from both Judaism and Christianity. In Islam, Jesus is considered a prophet, not a God, and the concept of God is far more similar to that of Judaism.

  231. Christianity and Islam each had periods of conquest, forced conversions and killing.

    Jews were killed in both the Christian world and the Islamic one. “In Ishmael’s House” by Sir Martin Gilbert gives a good overview.

    If you think that Jews were always slaughtered by Muslims and saved by Christians – well, that’s wrong. During the Inquisition, for example, Jews from Spain took refuge in Muslim countries. The current situation where, in general, predominantly Christian countries are safer for Jews than predominantly Muslim countries is a recent phenomenon – and it is fueled in part by the fact that European anti-semitism became unpopular in Western Europe after the Holocaust, but was exported to parts of the Muslim world. So today, you get Hamas spreading medieval Christian blood libel and Egypt doing a mini-series based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

  232. Funny thing is that if Islam considers Jesus a prophet, then why do not Muslims obey him? That is, do what He says?

  233. What does education, science, and philosophy have to do with anything?

    Do you realize that you are made up of three parts, i.e. body, soul, spirit? With the body we respond to the physical environment; with the soul, other people and ourselves (we can talk to ourselves); and with the spirit, we communicate with God. However, the natural man, like you, is born spiritually dead and needs to be quickened at some point in his life.

  234. Religion is broadly defined as a set of beliefs, attitudes and practices.

    The concept of what religion is can actually vary with each religion. Christianity, particularly some Protestant sects, puts more emphasis on belief and connection to Jesus. Judaism generally leans in the other direction and places the emphasis on actions. Some religions focus more on general philosophical principles.

  235. In Islam, Jesus is revered as a prophet, but Mohammed is still seen as the latest and greatest prophet. They believe in the Quran only, and think that both the Old and New Testament were altered so that they contain a mix of divine revelation and human alteration.

    So, the simple answer is that Muslims follow those teachings attributed to Jesus which are contained in the Quran. The other part of the answer is that in any group that contains over a billion follows, not everyone will do what their faith says that they should do. Christians have the same issue, as you yourself have pointed out.

  236. 1. As a general rule, the more education a person has, particularly in science and philosophy, the less likely the person is to be a believer.

    2. OK, body, soul, spirit. Please help me understand how to see anything related to soul or spirit. And if they are so obvious, then different branches of Christianity will understand them in the same way, right? Do you see where I am going with this?

    As a general rule, I make a point of not believing in anything unless I can measure it.

  237. Cynthia, the reason Xianity believes in a human, bodily god is stunningly obvious: the Jewish god is an impossible idea. You really have no idea if its characteristics. Plus, he’s ready to kick the crap outta you for the slightest infraction.

    Now, if you have a god in *physical* form, you can project onto that god the same loving feelings you have for Dad/Uncle Bob/Cousin James/etc. That is the origin of the idea of “godf-as-man”.

  238. Please do not get Christianity mixed up with cults and religions. It is neither one. Cults have truth combined with error. Religions are, as I said, works based. The apostle Paul, a Jew, servant of the Lord, wrote, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” As for critical thinking, this Hebrew, spent three years in the Arabian desert, listening to God, straighten out his theology.

  239. Not really. Judaism predates Christianity. It’s sort of like asking what the Christian position on Baha’ullah is, except there is more evidence that Baha’ullah actually existed.

    There’s a difference between lack of belief that a man who might have lived 2,000 years ago was also a God, and a positive believe that such a man must be in hell.

  240. Why is Mohammed the latest and greatest prophet? Why did God speak to him? Did God speak to others?

  241. Lucille – I’m not sure if you are being dense, or if you simply don’t have an opportunity for discussions with non-Christians in real life. In any case, let me explain why you are not remotely effective in discussing your faith.

    You are quoting the New Testament as proof of your beliefs – but you are doing so to people who do not share your belief that it is the word of God. That conversation would only work if you were talking to another Christian, or at least someone who was open to accepting a new belief.

    Picture yourself talking to a Muslim who is insisting that something is true because it says so in the Quran. Imagine how that would utterly fail to impress you. Well, that’s how you are coming across to non-Christians.

  242. The Pharisees, though, were NOT literalists at all. By the time that Christianity was starting, there were a number of different Jewish sects, and a tradition of adapting and interpreting Jewish scripture, including procedures that made carrying out the death penalty almost impossible.

    There was a longing for a Messiah, in the Jewish sense of the word, to save them from Roman oppression. It makes sense to me that if a group of people place all of their hopes on someone, they can’t accept that person’s death. In fact, there’s a modern-day group that believes that their Messiah appeared to die, but is really still alive and awaiting the opportunity to come back and reveal himself and usher in the Messianic age when we’ll have world peace and all of the other stuff promised in Isaiah. Here’s the thing: they aren’t Christian. The “Messiah” faction of the Chabad Lubavitch group, though, developed a theology that sounds a lot like Christianity in some ways after their leader died in 1994. Looking at them, you can see how Christianity might have developed.

  243. As for answer #1, I guess that explains why a person does not come to Christ until he sees his need for him. some people do not come until they are thoroughly broken. that is why God says that He dwells with those of a humble, contrite heart, He will not despise.

    As for answer #2, there is no such thing as different branches of Christianity. I don’t get that phrase. maybe you are talking about denominations, well, I get that. but the bottom line is that we are all sinners, the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God), Jesus paid the penalty for us, his blood washes away sin, and God’s wrath is satisfied when He sees THAT blood in a person. Therein is the spiritual connection to Him who is Spirit.

  244. *That’s fine. I’m only called to witness. Not impress or convince anybody.*

    *Good day.*

  245. IOW, Lucille, you cannot tell me what to look for to see a person’s soul or spirit. Just as I suspected.

    My experience in life has been that those who “trust in god” for things invariably come out worse–in every way you can think of–than those who rely on themselves, on science, on doctors, on well-known rules of behavior in business and elsewhere.

    If, in fact, there were an afterlife (etc), then why hasn’t your previous god made it obvious that those things exist, so people can choose on the basis of evidence?

  246. the talmud says he’s in hell, drowning in boiling excrement. Why contest an easily verifiable fact?

  247. Because the passage simply refers to someone named “Yeshu” who couldn’t have been Jesus, since other passages (Sanhedrin 107b and Sotah 47a) which also refer to Yeshu make it clear that he would have lived in 93 BC.

  248. that “whole different yeshu” fable didn’t fly the first time it was tried about 1000 years ago, and it still won’t.

  249. We had and have good reasons for rejecting Jesus of Nazareth. The converse to your statement is that most early Jews were not Christians. They got the memo, they just returned it and said it doesn’t apply.
    Proceed on your own way, I’m ok over here.

  250. I’m totally with Cardinal Burke. This ‘pope’ is either clueless or is a Soros puppet (the way he came to power as Benedict ‘retired’ is totally suspicious). The fact that he was hooked by Pelosi and weak- shil Boehner to speak before the U S Congress–which no pope EVER has done –(nor with the current anti-Catholic atmosphere is even conceivable —given that our nation these past 50 years has been led by marxist/socialist/Democrats and their shills in the msm , including their flagrant hostility towards Justices Scalia (who ‘died’ on obama’s friend Poindexter’s ranch–with ZERO investigation) , tells me certainly that this ‘pope’ is a tool.

  251. Absolutely–Jehovah is NOT the same as the Sunni Moon God–Allah. If this is catholic doctrine–it must be revised–I doubt Cardinal Burke believes that Jehovah and allah are one and same.

  252. The pope doesn’t agree with you either –if he believes that Jehovah is Allah. Certainly Jews don’t believe the Sunni Moon-god is their God.

  253. The difference between the Jewish perception of what the Messiah would do vs. what Jesus stated (and Christians believe) is that God’s Kingdom was not to be an ‘earthly one of peace, love, etc) , but rather Jesus announced the coming of a Heavenly Kingdom that ALL mankind was welcomed to , to share in. An peaceful earthly world is impossible given The Human Condition.

  254. A lot of people find a lot of things ‘offensive’; muslims find drawings of the prophet muhammad “offensive” –enough to murder for–as in Paris. That doesn’t make them right simply because they’re ‘offended’.

  255. I could argue that you really worship Jesus. Yes, what you said is true, but that doesn’t mean that God didn’t start as a local God. Then God became something bigger and grander. El Elyon means God of the most Hight which certainly could have been a local mountain God.

  256. Muslim women wear a variety of clothing. I’ve seen Muslim women wearing skin-tight jeans and hijabs. Wearing a hijab does not mean that you are an Islamic fundamentalist.

  257. Very true. But my point is a hijab is a measure of Muslim identity. An article of religious clothing indicating one is Muslim. Not necessarily fundamentalist.

  258. Two examples do not change the fact that the vast majority were antisemitic. This wouldn’t start to change until after Vatican II. So keep your facts straight. The Orthodox churches have still never had the equivalent of Vatican II.

  259. I just wanted to add that after what Christians call “The Old Testament” is not the same as the Hebrew Bible. Judaism does not begin and end with “the Old Testament.” Jews continued to interpret the Hebrew Bible and to adapt to new situations. We didn’t need a new religion. There are centuries of literature that you are not aware of.

  260. Jews believe that Gentiles just needed to live a good life to be saved. They didn’t need Jesus to be saved. You don’t understand Judaism or the Jewish God.

  261. Of course, I think that people should have the right to offend. That is part of our First Amendment. I don’t go around punching people I find offensive. If you are a thoughtful and sensitive person, you should consider what someone finds offensive and the reasons for it.

  262. Jews believe that Gentiles just needed to live a good life to be saved. They didn’t need Jesus to be saved. You don’t understand Judaism or the Jewish God.

  263. Billyjoe, All mankind is welcome in God’s Kingdon, not just Jews. Non-Jews actually have it easier. They only have to be a good person.

    Kimcheeman22, the rabbis thought that people should not focus on the afterlife and actions were to be done for your own sake and God’s, not because it will get you into heaven.

  264. Thank you, Cynthia, I have tried to say the same thing in many posts on RNS, but Christians don’t seem to want to get it. Few Christians read anything that Jewish literature produced after what they call the “Old Testament.”

  265. Even the most Ultra-Orthodox Jews are not literalists in that sense. They believed the Hebrew Bible was the word of God, but one had to dig deep to find the true meaning. . I have read the “New Testament” and I don’t find the “New Testament” God loving. The “New Testament is so hateful to Jews that it makes me sick to my stomach to read it. It is full of anti-Judaism.

  266. There is only one God. Only one true living God. The idols, false gods, are man made. One caveat is that Satan is the god of this world. He is the master of the unbeliever; unbelievers serve Satan. That is not true of the believer in Jesus Christ. The Christian has a new master. He becomes a servant of the Most High. That is what I am.

  267. “For there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” What name? It is Jesus. Judaism does not save anyone. What do you need to be saved from? Death which is eternal separation from God. Yes, that includes hell. Why? Because the wages of sin is death. Are you a sinner? Yes, you were born a sinner. Born in iniquity and shaped in sin. All humans are, except the first man and woman, Adam and Eve. Yet, they fell and introduced sin into the world. How? They obeyed the rebel angel who fell. Who? Lucifer. Destination? Hell and the lake of fire. When? In the future. End of story.

  268. In our prayerbook it says more than once, “God we have not savior but you. If we have God to save us, why do we need Jesus. I happen to think that God is more powerful than Jesus.

  269. I’m not confused. Do you believe in the trilogy? I don’t see how you don’t realize that Jesus is not God. Even if Jesus died for us all. I don’t think so, but you do. How is that believing in a loving God, because God and Jesus are not the same thing. If you don’t believe in the trinity, then you believe in a duinty.

  270. You are missing the whole point. The Jews misinterpreted what the Messiah was to do— not bring peace, love, and understanding to the whole earth–this is impossible. Jesus announced a New Kingdom–that is The Kingdom of Heaven–and all who accept these Judaeo-Christian principles –of Love of God and Neighbor will be the inhabitants there. The Messiah has come ! Rejoice–a heavenly kingdom has been prepared for All Mankind.

  271. That is an impossible feat given The Human Condition on Earth. Hate to bust your bubble but you’ll be waiting forever for this ‘event’; Furthermore, as it ends with Death–it would only by temporary–unlike the Permanent Kingdom of Peace, Love, Understanding which Jesus came to announce.

  272. “Saved” from what ? Most Jews I know don’t believe in an afterlife , hell or heaven anyway.

  273. Will Hitler go to God’s Kingdom??? –he is part of Mankind .

  274. It’s not so much that Jews don’t believe in Heaven or Hell, it is that there is so little focus on it that most Jews aren’t even really sure if Jews believe in Heaven or Hell. We are not supposed to base our actions or beliefs on getting into Heaven or staying out of Hell.

  275. I said if you were a GOOD PERSON it would not matter what religion you were or even don’t believe in any religion you will go to God’s Kingdom. No, he won’t go to Heaven, because he was not a good person. Not because of whether he believed in Jesus or not.

  276. Sounds like a likely excuse to divert focus away from the utter confusion (and likely contradiction) that must exist within the 3 main levels of judaism today.

  277. In that case, who is to JUDGE who is a “Good” person ?? If he had believed in Jesus, he certainly would not have done what he did.

  278. And maybe that’s why so many Jews tell me they’re Agnostic or Atheist.

  279. I don’t have antipathy to Christianity. I have antipathy for certain types of Christians who don’t recognize or understand Judaism. Even the Pope has said that Christians should not try to convert Jews. The book I read about anti-judaism and the “New Testament” was written by a Christian.

    You are the one who has bought into Trump’s lies. I don’t agree with everything the left does. There are many left-wing organizations I can’t support because of their views on Israel and Zionism. George Soros is not seditious. That is right-wing lie on mostly antisemitic sites and so-called alt. right sites. Milo Yannopoulos is a vicious antisemite. Donald Trump did not win the popular vote and you know that. RBG was just pointing that out. Nor has Trump won the most electoral votes of any GOP candidate. You call me a hypocrite, but you are just gullible. You confuse being a liberal with being a leftist. They are not the same thing. Most Jews are liberals, not leftists. Soros supports pretty mainstream candidates. He does not support extreme leftists. Jews voted for Hillary Clinton who is not a leftist except in your mind. She is moderately liberal and I do mean moderately.

  280. Worse still, 50% of Jews are Atheists–there are articles all over the internet by Rabbis who are lamenting this.

  281. I do know the constitution. RBG was saying that she thought the constitution should be changed at this point in history to a direct vote instead.

    Trump is a self-centered narcissist. He makes every question about him. He has no time for anyone else. I you think that he cares about people like you, you are wrong. He doesn’t have any real beliefs that don’t involve him making more money. No, George Soros is not paying people to riot or burn anything. Trump lies everyday. You can say that is not wrong and it isn’t illegal, but it should bother you. I support a woman’s right to choose, does that make me seditious. I am not defending Soros because he is Jewish, I am defending hime because he supports good causes that I support and that does not include rioting and burning. I should add that Trump himself has not been willing to condemn antisemitism in anyone at all. No, I don’t think that Trump is personally antisemitic, but why can’t he condemn it? The Russians spied on us. George Soros openly gave money to support a cause he believes in. It certainly won’t help him make any more money.

  282. No, it’s because of the Holocaust and the rest of Jewish history.

  283. Lots of people who believed in Jesus did horrible things. They massacred Jews, they tortured people and set them on fire during the inquisition. What they didn’t have was modern technology. Are you saying that you need to believe in Jesus to be a good person or are you saying that believing in Jesus prevent you from being a bad person? Neither are true.

  284. You have finally shown who you really are. So Jews are “cheap, vile-motivated liars. Saul Alinsky died in 1972 before MSNBC was created. Obviously, he never worked there. Who do you consider good Jews? Any Jew who supports Trump. That would make that Jew as gullible as you. In case you haven’t noticed this is a religion web site and if someone says something ignorant about Jews. I will point it out. I do not have to apologize for that. I did say that I didn’t think Trump, himself was antisemitic. Oh, I don’t support or defend anyone just because they are Jewish. I do care about other people and I realize that Trump does not. Look at his cabinet! They are all billionaires. There are a few decent people like General Mattis, but mostly they are people who don’t care about me or you. They care about making more money. I’m not trying to convert anyone. I am expressing my opinion. You are just so gullible, I feel sorry for you. Planned Parenthood spends most of its time giving brith control advice to women, Gyn. exams and Pap smears for detecting cancer.

  285. Even though Oscar Schindler was not a Jew, I believe, according to the movie on his life, it is said that he rescued 1,000 Jews. Israel planted a tree in his honor among the righteous gentiles, which is a contradiction, but more on that later. “… As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one …”

    I am not Catholic. But there were Catholics that hid Jews, particularly children, changed their names, and helped many with passage to the U.S. There are many stories to attest to this fact by survivors still alive today.

    Israel My Glory is an excellent resource. I love the stories.

  286. NO, SUSAN–YOU HAVE SHOWN WHO YOU ARE–attacking Christians because of what the Spanish Government did in the Inquisition a half a millennium ago when it took back its nation from the Moors–no different than what Israel did when it took back its land in Palestine . WHO DO YOU CONSIDER GOOD CHRISTIANS ??!!!
    YOU DON’T HAVE TO TELL ME SAUL ALINSKY IS DEAD–I knew that–but his damage is still here.

    You say look at Trump’s cabinet –NO YOU LOOK AT OBAMA’S —John Kerry–millionaire turned BILLIONAIRE with the HEINZ family money—there were at least 6 other multi-millionaire’s in obama’s cabinet–look them up on line–an entire article on them –and that’s not even counting the Clintons and their “Foundation”–worth hundreds of millions–90% they keep for themselves–their daughter’s apt in NYC is millions alone. The Obama’s themselves are worth hundreds of millions –all of a sudden –with speeches and books//!!!–who makes hundreds of millions wwith the latter??? Trump at least worked as a businessman for his money–and he is charitable as well. You’ve been watching CNN –the Criminal Clinton News Network that fed questions in advance to hillary via that ignorant DNC chairwoman Brazile as well as those other supposed ‘moderators’ who entered the presidential debates as debaters–all interfering with the election in favor of Hildabeest.

    Planned Parenthood is an abortion factory. Dr. Bernard Nathanson stated that Abortion is The Greatest American Holocaust.

    May sons of Obama always be at the heels of you and yours.

  287. Yes, but they are dedicated to helping working class people and Trump’s cabinet only care about the rich. CNN is a moderate organization. They always have a GOP rep. on too. You are the one who is misinformed. Why can’t you see that you are being used?

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