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Notable Christians who’ve had a change of heart on LGBT issues

A lesbian couple kiss in front of the Colosseum during the annual gay pride parade in downtown Rome on June 15, 2013. Photo by Max Rossi/Reuters

(RNS) — In an interview this week, Christian best-selling author Eugene Peterson said he would be willing to officiate at a same-sex marriage. In saying so, he joins a prominent group of Christians whose views on same-sex marriage and LGBT issues have evolved.

These popular Christian writers, pastors or musicians, in no particular order, have publicly broken from the traditional hard-line position against same-sex marriage.

Jen Hatmaker

Photo courtesy of Jen Hatmaker

Evangelical leader, author and HGTV star Jen Hatmaker publicly changed her views on gay marriage in 2016. Both a Facebook post calling for LGBT acceptance and comments about supporting same-sex marriage in an interview with RNS led LifeWay Christian Stores to quit selling her books in October.

Jim Wallis

Photo courtesy of Jim Wallis

The founder of Sojourners magazine,  Jim Wallis was raised evangelical. He defended traditional marriage in a 2008 Christianity Today article, saying he wasn’t sure he’d perform a same-sex blessing, although he did express support for gay and lesbian civil rights. In 2013, Wallis answered “yes” when asked if he supported same-sex marriage in a Huffington Post interview.

 

Matthew Vines

Photo courtesy Matthew Vines

Photo courtesy of Matthew Vines

After taking a leave of absence from Harvard University to study the Bible and homosexuality, Matthew Vines gave a speech at his church about accepting gay Christians that has amassed over 1 million views on YouTube since 2012. He also started The Reformation Project, a nonprofit trying to “reform church teaching on sexual orientation and gender identity,” and wrote the book “God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships.”

Rob Bell

Photo courtesy of Rob Bell

The former pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church publicly stated his views on gay marriage while speaking at San Francisco’s Grace Cathedral in 2013. He then reaffirmed them during an Odyssey Networks interview the same week. At Grace Cathedral, he also said evangelicals should no longer be assumed to be conservatives. He described “a very narrow, politically intertwined, culturally ghettoized, evangelical subculture” that he sees dying out.

Trey Pearson

Photo courtesy of Trey Pearson

In a post on his website titled “My Coming Out Letter,” Christian rock musician Trey Pearson told fans that he identified as a gay man, despite being married with children. As he explains in the letter, published in June 2016, he was raised in a faith that taught him “sexual orientation was a matter of choice,” so he repressed his sexual desires most of his life. Since coming out, he has written about life as a gay Christian and created a music video depicting his experience.

Julie Rodgers

Photo courtesy of Julie Rodgers

Although she has identified as gay since high school, Julie Rodgers has officially supported gay marriage for only a few years. As she has chronicled on her blog and in The Washington Post, she first spent a long time advocating celibacy for Christians who were gay or lesbian. Now, she speaks and writes as an advocate for LGBT Christians.

Rachel Held Evans

Photo courtesy of Rachel Held Evans

In 2015, The Washington Post called Christian author Rachel Held Evans “the most polarizing woman in evangelicalism.” This label comes from her positions on LGBT rights and homosexuality, topics she’s grappled with publicly since starting her blog in 2008. In one of her old posts, “An Evangelical’s Response to Homosexuality,” she refuses to chose a side of the issue but does admit to wondering if the evangelical church “has it wrong.” In more recent years, she has referred to herself as an “ally” and wrote about LGBT Christians in her 2015 book “Searching for Sunday.”

 

Joel Hunter

Joel Hunter. Photo courtesy of Regal Books

The 2016 Pulse nightclub shooting caused Pastor Joel Hunter to re-evaluate his views on LGBT issues. While he said recently that his church, Northland, A Church Distributed, will maintain that the Bible prohibits gay relationships, he now believes conservative churches should welcome and support those of all sexual orientations. In May, Northland hosted a public forum to discuss LGBT issues within the church.

 

Vicky Beeching

Photo courtesy of Vicky Beeching

Christian rock star Vicky Beeching still considered herself an evangelical, even after coming out via an interview with The Independent in 2014. During her keynote address at the 2015 Gay Christian Network’s annual conference, the U.K.-based singer said she still loves the church. According to her official site, she now works as a speaker and writer, often discussing her personal journey and LGBT issues in the church.

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Madeleine Buckley

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  • Looks like some folks are really trying hard to sell Gay Marriage to American Christians this week.

    (Gettin’ awful desperate to make a sale and close the deal or something. Wonder why? Maybe I better leave it at that.)

    Anyway, it’s time to start talking about the folks that don’t get much ink with the media these days. The ones who still agree with the Bible and whose life stories can prove Jesus ain’t retired, nor dead, nor even limping a little.

    There’s some OTHER Christian people around here, whose life stories deserve a fair hearing. (Some of *them* can sing as well, by the way.)

    http://www.restoredhopenetwork.com

  • We already hear enough from homophobic christians.
    It’s refreshing to hear that these evangelical christians living the word they believe in. I wish more would.

  • Sad to say Joel Hunter has “changed his heart” (BTW, is that different than changing one’s mind? Is the title to the post intentionally misleading?!?!), is a half truth at best. His church has not begun to to affirm same-sex relationships. The article should have told the whole truth. Being caring and compassionate is not the same thing as moving away from the historical/biblical position of the church.

  • Ah yes, “homophobia.” A buzzword and a falsehood, whose expiration date passed decades ago.

  • I’m believe every human being has innate worth and dignity in the eyes of God, I affirm that the state has the right to set the terms for what constitutes a marriage with respect to civil law. At the same time no amount of revisionist reinterpretation of the biblical text will ever effectively demonstrate that the bible posits or affirms same sex marriage as appropriate in the eyes of God. These so-called “prominent” Christian leaders are deceived and in error. It is not my concern particularly regarding what happens outside the Body of Christ, but as a confirmed believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it is manifestly my concern when Christians essentially deny the Word of God. Apostate is the appropriate term for them. I say this without hate or rancor, but with a great deal of sadness.

  • They’ve all had “changes of heart”?
    Right about the time they wet their index fingers, held them up in the breeze and felt the way the wind (and people and money) were flowing.
    Pathetic. No wonder churches describe their members as their ‘flocks’!

  • This sort of exposition just begs the question of whether or not to believe the Bible as interpreted should be taken literally. It’s akin to the (probably false) story of the scientist (not sure which discipline, probably told at different times as a physicist and entomologist and other things) who proved using scientific formulae that bumblebees can’t fly – it’s the same dynamic.
    Fundamentalism is an emotional response to the vagaries of life but cannot work for people who wish to be honorable and empathetic.

  • Well, then! Let’s go with homohatred or homobigotry. Much more accurate and au courant.

  • You should try being the gay person who has to listen to your bigotry or worse get beaten or killed because of it, then you might understand why the the word homophobia exists.

  • I often find that when person has a change of heart or mind on an important issue, it’s not arrived at lightly or glibly. Much thought usually precedes their decision.

    It’s also helpful to remember that every one of us is a fallible human being. From the greatest theologian and preacher to the regular person on the street. And every one of us are wrong on some stuff and right on some stuff. And it always seems that the things were mot convinced we’re right on turn out to be the things we’re actually wrong on. We would all do well to remember our humanity and our ability to be wrong.

    Finally, the issue is much fought over by people of good will, who arrive at different conclusions. But it is not a classic or historic part of the Christian Confessions like the Nicean Creed. While some are attempting to make it a primary theological issue, it’s historically been s “secondary” issue. And one’s eternal life is not staked on holding a certain position on the matter (though some more extreme elements are attempting to make one’s stance on it a “eternal life” issue.

    I don’t know any of these people above except for Trey Pearson, who’s video was on an alt music channel, as I’m not a Christian. His video is really good.

    Lastly, I’ll say that when people know each other personally and intimately, people very much moderate their previous hard-line stances. Online comments are a very poor way of building intimate relationships with others, and in fact, encourages incivility and hostility. There is no substitute for having someone in your life that you are interacting with on a regular basis. It can cause a person to change their heart and mind.

  • “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” James 4:4

  • That’s funny! The word ‘homophobic’ is now replacing ‘God fearing’.
    We are “God Fearing” Christians.
    “Friendship with the world, is enmity toward God.” James 4:4

  • Well said, Edward. Note that a few of these Bible-denying “evangelicals”–a word that is rapidly losing its meaning–have a self-interest in rationalizing and justifying their sin. I recommend Christian ex-“gay” sites like FirstStone.org and RestoredHopeNetwork.org.

  • Note that leftist-“progressives” are becoming the real “fundamentalists” in Western culture. Disagree with them, especially on sexual morality or “climate change,” and you ANATHEMA!!

  • I’m impressed?
    This crew has enough credence to overturn Holy Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition?
    Give me strength.

  • For many, it is just heart. For others, it is also mind. I am a conservative Christian. I have written an essay proving, with traditional techniques of interpretation and none of the pseudo-arguments offered by liberal revisionists, that God reveals in the Bible his will that the Church celebrate homosexual marriage just as it celebrates heterosexual marriage. I make not only an affirmative case for my thesis but refute all the conservatives’ arguments to the contrary — all that I know of.
    My essay has been read and criticized by many learned and mature Christians, including seminary professors. Their criticisms have helped me improve it, but not one has refuted any of its main arguments.
    Do you have interest in the subject, an open mind, and time to peruse a rather scholarly essay? If so, ask me by email for a copy of the latest version. I will send it in reply with only one request — that you give me your severest criticism of it. As a conservative evangelical, I am unhappy to advocate same-sex marriage by the Church; doing so has alienated me from many of my fellows. So, in seeking correction, I have a social motive besides my devotion to truth and to pleasing God.
    Richard Bell, [email protected]

  • I don’t see progressives looking to attack civil liberties of others or promoting legalized discrimination.

    “Disagree with them, especially on sexual morality or “climate change,” and..”

    Attacking people under the guise of religious belief and denying established scientific knowledge tend to raise hackles and promote discord.

  • When you (personal or plural) denigrate races, you’re a racist. You are what you say you are.

  • Pick and chose biblical theology. How do you decide on what you’re going to believe – do you throw dice on it?

  • Yup, Biblical Christians are really big on murder.
    Have you ever lived on Planet Earth?

  • Your mind is so open that your brain has leaked out. Hope you locate it before you are held to account for your Biblical illiteracy and your preaching it and misleading others..

  • No. You look deeper into the translation of the scripture and think about the historical context surrounding who it was written for and why. Remember that Jesus came to fulfill the law even though some people think that he just chose not to follow it. Very different

  • Hey Pete, how’s tricks? I guess “ANATHEMA” is in the eye of the beholder. You are certainly free to believe whatever you wish but you are never free to believe whatever you wish and be guaranteed freedom from criticism.

  • Everyone does that including you. Fundamentalism is always highly selective in how it seeks to interpret scripture.

  • Not a person on this list gives any evidence of being saved, let alone a “notable Christian”. “Notable” for what? Rebellion?

  • Yes, thank you…..I am a God Fearing believer in the Christ who is ‘working out his salvation with fear and trembling’. Everyone else — “….in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 Thessalonians 8

  • I assume you have read my essay, because you would not say such ugly things in ignorance of it.
    The ugly things you say are not edifying or even respectful. We are commanded to treat everyone with respect and to edify our brothers and sisters in Christ.
    Assuming you have read my essay, I respectfully ask that you state specifically how I show Biblical illiteracy and how I am misleading others. That alone would be edifying.

  • The definition of “notable” seems to have expanded since my childhood. Also, “Christian”.

  • You have some good thoughts here. I really appreciate your desire to be kind and thoughtful. However, I would encourage you not to deceive yourself that it is a secondary issue to deny God has created the world with order and intention; that gender is incidental; and that embracing the effects of sin is a small matter for a Christian to partake in.

  • Can you think of examples of people who have temptation to act in a certain way that you believe is wrong and when they embrace that temptation, you don’t hate them for it? Even though you believe embracing it is wrong? I’m sure you can. I would hope those people wouldn’t label you a bigot for simply disagreeing with them about ethical questions. The world’s far too diverse for us to start name-calling everyone who disagrees with us.

  • Disagreement is one thing. But when it comes to the Christian Right, the slander and reviling, the attempts to use the law to repress and oppress, the blaming us for every possible social ill, and doing everything they can to make our lives as difficult, dangerous, expensive, and unpleasant as possible, we are not talking about disagreement.

  • As I have been reliably informed by so many Christians of your ilk, disagreement isn’t hate. But as long as you think that your so-called faith entitles you to dominion over my life, and justifies your willingness to harm my life and the lives of millions of people like me, you can expect to see me commenting.
    Just so you know, my oldest friend in the world is a Christian minister, whose denomination makes Baptists look like Lutherans. We were married by a Christian minister who is also a friend.
    I must have really gotten under your skin. Good.

  • You haven’t been here very long, have you. Attacking other Christians for not being the right sort of Christian and maintaining the politically correct viewpoint– god hates figs– is what our most conservative, god loving, sin hating Christians do.

  • “Not a person on this list gives any evidence of being saved . . .” . . . Of course not, because there is no such thing as evidence of being saved.

  • Bwahahahah! LMAO!
    There is no first amendment right to discriminate in open commerce.

    The poor baker who was oppressed because he was not allowed to oppress others. LOL!

    I guess he knows how all those racist shop owners felt after the civil rights act was passed.

    Eff him and the fools who bought their way to put this case before SCOTUS. Waste of time. Kennedy will be the fifth vote against it. The man practically created gay rights in the courts.

  • I use the expression “your so called faith” not because I don’t believe you have one, but because it is clearly a cover for a weapon.
    when you gleefully threaten a constitutional amendment to ban my marriage, which harms not you, your faith, or anyone else, but simply pisses you off, you are saying that MY life, my love, MY faith, my children, and my family– let alone my assets– simply don’t matter. That is a direct attempt to harm me, as has every anti-gay political campaign your and your ilk have ever fomented against us.
    I don’t assert a right to put my foot on the necks of people who think like you. I couldn’t possibly not care any less about your faith or you than I already don’t. I have been quite clear about that, but you choose to ignore what I have said against your own whiney nonsense about a totally imaginary persecution of people like you. Either the laws forbidding discrimination on the basis of religious belief mean something, or they do not. You just whine about being an exception to them. If you don’t like them, get rid of them. Or just learn to be proper professionals and employ any number of perfectly legal strategies to avoid having to associate with them icky gay people.
    But no, what you want is to be special because you call yourself a Christian, exempt from common courtesy, exempt form the law, and exempt fro doing as your own lord commanded you: judging not, treating others as you insist on being treated yourselves.

  • I’d say it is being a rude a-hole. But then, I don’t think my faith entitles me ot tell people not to express their opinions in a public forum.

  • Your opinion does not create facts or binding law. You do not have a first amendment right to harm others. Discrimination is not only a harm to customers but to society as a whole.

    You are 53 years too late for your argument.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katzenbach_v._McClung

    It’s quite telling that you lifted arguments verbatim from racist bigots who supported discrimination in commerce. It really undercuts any pretension of moral standing of your position. Your view is simply a new iteration of past malicious garbage.

  • I HAVE been blamed in these very pages in the past two weeks for the fall of Rome and the decline of the family and attacks on the church. So no.

    Ten years ago, we spent $2000 to prevent my rapacious family from attacking our assets should something happen to me. The lawyer who did the paperwork said that it should do the trick. $2000 for less protection than could be obtained with a $100 marriage license. We had to pay taxes on the health insurance my husband receives, as well as having to pay for two separate tax returns.

    A marriage license confers a host of rights, benefits, obligations, and responsibilities on people, the most important of which is legal next of kinship. No other contract confers that. I knew a lot of people who were barred from their loved one’s hospital rooms because they weren’t married, or who lost their life’s accumulations of wealth and property to Rapacious relatives for lack of a marriage license.

    As far as the complaints of hear from married people, perhaps because they have never had to fight for the right to be married, they tend to take it for granted.

    I do not.

  • No anti gay campaigns? You are simply delusional. No need to argue about laws which forbid discrimination on the basis of religious belief because you believe they shouldn’t apply to you or jack philips? Fair minded people are not not oBjecting. That’s all special Christians. The majority of the American people disagree with you.

    We’re done for the day.

  • The point was that $100 marriage license would have accomplished far more for far less.

  • The difference with the anti gay cake case is the baker objected to the message involved but did not deny the customer a chance to obtain the goods in question. Here, the baker objected to the class of people of the customer. There was no finding that a cake for a gay couple was fundamentally different than one for straight couples. Certainly no offensive message or forced speech involved.

    I guess if you are going to defend discrimination, honesty is not the best policy.

    The baker in masterpiece objected to baking a cake for gay people. The bad example counterpoint you brought up, the baker objected to the cake itself. Reserving no judgments or even denying service to the customer.

    Your view is that certain people can be treated like crap under color of law in a malicious manner. If you want tolerance for such a repugnant view go eff yourself. It would be immoral to treat such views with anything less than contempt.

  • You are full of crap. The fact the customers were gay was the entire reason given by the baker in masterpiece. It is why your example of the other Colorado case was so terrible. (As are similar analogies)

    This is why the baker lost in court and on appeal. It is why he was found in violation of a law of fairly general application. It had zero to do with a “potentially offensive message” other then the basic concept of gay people being his customers for a wedding cake.

    Absolutely no different than if he did the same for an interracial couple or a Hindu one. Finding excuses in religion for your bigotry is not license to attack others or ignore laws protecting the public.

    If you are so bigoted and malicious that you have to be forced by law to treat customers with the barest of civility, you don’t belong in open commerce. Moreover, you don’t get to whine that people aren’t treating you nicely for it. You deserve to go out of business.

    You don’t give a crap about religious freedom. You want special license as a Christian to harm others without consequences. It makes you a terrible person.

  • You didn’t read it at all. You even admitted, though in an extremely dishonest and euphemism laden way that the “message” Masterpiece found offensive was the notion of serving gay people. Meaning the class of people as customer was the source of his objection.

    “I have scratched my head about why Philips lost on appeal in the Colorado courts. The record shows the Commission was both incompetent and biased.”

    Suuuure. It was bias and not a completely bogus line of reasoning for the argument. The fact that the actions were indistinguishable from any other form of discrimination in open commerce had nothing to do with it whatsoever. Riiiight.

    “You don’t give a crap about religious freedom. You just want an excuse to attack those with religious beliefs. That makes you a terrible person.”

    Nope you are still full of crap. I have no beef with people with religious beliefs. I only have problems with people who seek to use them as excuses to attack others and flaunt laws. Believe whatever you want. Just play nice with others when you do. Your attempt at being clever is a failure. You are a terrible person. I am not a bigot for not tolerating your bigotry. I am being a morally upright person for doing so.

    https://weeklysift.com/2017/07/03/three-misunderstood-things/

    One might object that Masterpiece Cakeshop is similar: “Same-sex wedding cakes” are simply not something they sell. But wedding cakes are not differentiated that way; a “gay wedding cake” is not a thing. Same-sex wedding cakes are generally chosen from the same catalogs as “straight” wedding cakes, with the same options for designs, frosting, fillings and so forth. It might be different if Masterpiece had said “We won’t provide a cake with two brides or two grooms on top; we don’t sell those to anyone.” But what they said, in fact, was that they wouldn’t sell any cakes for same-sex weddings. That’s sexual orientation discrimination.

  • II Peter 1:5-11

    “But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore,brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

  • I can give Peter a pass because he lived during a period in history when ignorance was virtually all anyone had to work with.

  • It tends to be that very last one, of course. But it may not be all the time. Hope not, anyway.

  • Me? I’m just a lil’ ol’ black Christian from the back 40. I love all the races, because they all disprove Evolution. I also like a little Bible mixed with a little BBQ sauce. (Of course, you can’t like the Bible and like gay marriage at the same time.)

    Hickory Smoke, by the way. Yummy!

  • Spuddie needs his information pre-digested.

    Muder, however, might be a step up from the Friendly Atheist blog, which he usually cites.

  • It’s mostly when the topic is homosexuality. We have already observed that having the requisite views on that subject converts the “theo-poo” Ben likes to complain about into “non-theo-poo.”

  • Blind men cannot see Richard. The truth is the Gospel restores not only proper righteousness and holiness, but also knowledge. The Fear of the Lord is knowledge’s start; without it nothing is left but ignorance. I pray you will someday be brought out of yours.

  • I do not know who any of these people mentioned are so I really can only feel pity for them as I would for anyone who made a conscious choice to deny the Lord. It is all so very simple. You either know Christ and you follow Him or you don’t. Good and evil are easily seen through the eyes of God and it is easy to know what is sinful behavior and what is not. The problem with our society is that a majority have now fallen prey to the enemy and for those who once knew God, but then turned their face to the world, they slip into the sewer that is our society. They can dress it all up, but people who are in the public view who have been leaders or supporters of religion and then turn and present opinions that are of the devil, only show themselves to now be servants of the enemy. There is no black in white in our choices to serve God or to serve ourselves and the world. It is tragic that so many will be lost. We can only continue to pray for a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit to open the hearts of all those who are blind to God, before it is too late. The devil’s time is almost up.

  • Thank you. I’m familiar with Restored Hope, I’ll investigate First Stone.

  • A comprehensive knowledge of the rules of literature and its interpretation makes allowance for the reader’s ability to discern when to view a text as literal or metaphorical, this is not a difficult discipline. I think your final sentence is far too restrictive in its perspective…a narrow framing with a very broad brush.

  • Thank you very much for reinforcing my thankfulness for being totally liberated from religious nonsense for about forty years.

  • But He does in Mark 7. Jesus lists what defiles a person. He uses the same Greek words the apostles use to in the NT to describe the sin of homosexuality. There is no wiggle room. It seems pretty clear as per Jesus.

  • I don’t think so. Fundamentalists act like the Bible supports them in their prejudices, but hem and haw when their own behavior is addressed. It’s a weaponization of scripture for the purpose of keeping themselves on top and those they disdain on the bottom. A more mature approach is to view scripture as useful to study, but to use it to wag a finger at someone else is reprehensible. Consider, for example, Levitical laws which would seemingly prohibit consumption of shrimp, pork chops, cheeseburgers, pepperoni pizza, etc.: reasonable people conclude such were developed due to risk of disease and other health defficiencies from spoilage and such. Orthodox Jews [here referring to their sect, not any political position as right-wing Christians use “orthodox” to mean politically correct for them] keep such laws for another reason: it reminds them that they are Jews and therefore serves as a cultural marker. However, people who would never think of turning away mama’s pork chops conversely pick and choose whatever other Levitical passage seems to justify their prejudices in order to wag fingers at others.

  • There is a great deal of truth in what you say, but among many Christians that I know who would identify largely as fundamentalists, the approach to such questions as are discussed here would be accomplished with some nuance. I do not discount the prevalence of unacknowledged self righteousness among conservative Christians, but that is largely matter of the failure to engage in regular self examination. As a Christian matures spiritually such self examination becomes a regular discipline. My obligation to declare sin as defined by the bible is not lessened by the fact that I myself am a sinner. I do not “wag” my finger at other people in the specific, I admonish myself, fellow believers, and unbelievers alike when confronted by sin, but I attempt to do so with a generous heart.

  • You are correct. Not all call evil good, though. Some mourn over sin and repent of it, and some wave rainbow flags and cheer in celebration os sodomy.

  • You’ve just spouted a pile of meaningless words, because we already understand the true Biblical meanings of the terms and words.
    A heretic can never get under my skin, because I already know the truth.

  • I don’t need to associate with those you call “icky gay people”. as they have already rejected the belief of what the Bible clearly teaches.
    It is not me who is on the outside of Biblical Christianity – it is you.

  • Yes, you are right. I myself am very careful to interpret Scripture by Scripture, as have all Christians who took God’s Word seriously.

  • Just what is the Christian “right”? Is it people who are Christian who lean politically right, or is it biblical Christians who are following the whole bible as it is written?
    Just because we don’t suck up to the world’s political correctness doesn’t make us a reactionary right. Political correctness is a reaction to true Biblical Christianity.

  • Your faith is bogus, and every person you mention becomes suspect as a heretic, if they are in ‘good standing’ with you, who are a heretic.

  • Thereis no anti-gay in the church – there is only pro-gay outside of the church. You make a big mistake by trying to use the the Bible and the true church as a defense for your heresy. any christian who understand the bible knows this, and pities you in your ignorance, and opposes you in your arrogance.
    But go on your way. If truth is in you, you will find your way back; if sin is is in you, you will multiply that sin.
    No Christian need be blamed for trying to hold you to correct doctrine, since you are wise and know so much better than we. Let God be the Judge.

  • “Why do you condemn homosexuals?”

    “Because Leviticus.”

    “Do you believe EVERYTHING in Leviticus is binding on modern Christians?”

    “Well…because Paul.”

    “Do you believe everything Paul wrote is binding on modern Christians? Do you, for example, insist that women should sit silently in church with their heads covered?”

    “Well…because Jesus.”

    “Jesus had nothing to say against homosexuality, but plenty to say against harsh, dogmatic legalists who judge and condemn. So I ask again: why do you condemn homosexuals?”

    “Because I hate them!”

    (All right, so maybe the last line isn’t often spoken aloud…but is that or is that not what it all comes down to?)

  • So you simply attack the writer for some reason that you are unable to articulate. Essentially a big “nyuh-huh”.

    Your sole explanation for the Colorado appeals court decision was an unfounded and unsupported claim of bias.

    You admitted yourself the “offensive message” the baker was allegedly “forced to make” was simply making a wedding cake for a gay couple. Their existence in the store and their request for an item which would be indistinguishable from ones he would sell to others, being so offensive

    You have provided nothing honest to support your view.
    https://pics.me.me/what-do-you-mean-i-cant-force-people-to-follow-14903099.png

  • And remember when in the Jim Crow South businesses could refuse to serve black citizens? Did we create their rights out of thin air? Or did they already have those rights according to the Constitution? It seems that some people then cited the bible, too, in their refusal to serve them.

  • Let me sum up your five different posts for you. “God said it. I believe it. That settles it.”

    You are certainly entitled to your beliefs. Except that therein lies the problem. From my perspective, and perspective of so many people, gay and straight alike, “Christian” or not, bible believing or spirit guided, this is what you are really saying.

    “I believe that a being I believe is god said it. I believe I understand it. And as far as I am concerned, it doesn’t matter about the consequences to others, because that settles it.”

    You mention correct doctrine, heretics, and so forth. That’s pretty funny, as so called Christians denounce other Christians for not being the right sort of christian, when you are not denouncing jews, liberals, Mormons, Muslims, and everyone else. The history of the west is writ large in the blood of those disagreements.

    Let god be the judge? You people have already occupied the Throne, at least in your own minds. You’re not god, you don’t represent god, and I sincerely doubt that he confides in the likes of you his relationship with anyone else on the planet. You are not privy to the mind of god, except in your own warped perspectives. But you have your book, and that justifies all of it.

    You want to talk about arrogance, let’s talk about that.

  • I’m not a heretic. I’m an atheist. But I love people who use the word heretic to describe and/or attack other believers.

  • True biblical Christianity doesn’t exist, except as a self referential pat on their own backs among people who have used their faith to elevate themselves.

    You know who else has The Whole Goddam Truth? Islamic terrorists.Fascistic Communists. Nazis.

  • “It is not me who is on the outside of biblical Christianity.”

    And thank the god I don’t believe in for that.

  • Something about logs and specks comes to mind.

    And BTW, dear, I’m not celebrating sodomy. Im celebrating freedom from people who think they are god.

  • As a believer in Jesus Christ, his life as a model to his followers and his teachings, a believer in democracy which implies a legitimately chosen representative government that allows all citizens to participate in selecting (and being able to remove) public officials and whose authority over the public square comes from God, and is directed to fulfill the role of providing and promoting justice, treatment of all its people equally, establishing a fair and proportionate judicial system, and oversees that all members of the community under its authority have access to their fundmental needs (that includes a nutritional diet, access to health care, an education at the level necessary to obtain a livable income, a safe and adequate shelter, and fully participate in the life of their local, state and national community. I offer this long preface to indicate that my faith entails more than traditional evangelicals. Consequently, I have struggled with the issue of how the church needs to recognize, accept, counsel (not in a judgmental way), support, love, embrace and include in the life of the church. This applies to all people, regardless of race, age, gender, income, faith, nationality, background as well as sexual orientation. The Bible is unequivocal about this and our responsibilities to love one another. This has become my primary assumption, unquestioned and driven by a call to obedience. Of secondary, but necessary importance would be questions about gay marriage, gay ordination, clergy performing the rite of marriage, raising of children in gay households, etc. But they must follow from my primary assumption. While an increasing % of the public accepts my primary assumption, there are still a substantial number of people of faith who do not. This is the cause of great sadness, disappointment in many cases, because others look up to those they trust and rely on for guidance. But no one can be coerced to believe against their will nor should they be. It will depend on a process that begins with prayer, includes relationships with gay people and listening to their stories and struggles, working with them in the life of the church, and coming as close as possible to “walking in their shoes”.

  • The parallel is this: No one can help being born black, and no one can help being born gay. Of course, Christians (not all) believe that homosexuality is a choice. Also, you have the Mormon Church (a Christian denomination) discriminating against blacks (and others?) until the 1970s. They could not hold any clerical position…were second-class citizens. Are you saying that our Constitution justifies discrimination against same-sex marriage?

  • Actually not. Not all bigotry is hate. So much of it is the always present, always assumed, always unwarranted belief in one’s own wholly imaginary superiority as a Christian (or any other True Faith), a moral person. A heterosexual in this case, or human being in all other cases.

  • The states cannot prohibit same-sex marriages. Obergefell v. Hodges, 2015. I would like to add that I live in Alabama, where a former chief of our state supreme court continues to try to maintain that the states can. He was finally removed from his position, and now we get to watch him run for governor.

  • Ah. Like the rural Pastor who denounced the Wright Brothers in 1903, since “Man was not meant to fly,” then.

  • In my history of dialogue with you and reading your post you have always conducted yourself honorably unlike others who share some of your beliefs. The rub is in exactly how you conduct yourself in “declar[ing] sin.” You have attributes which indicates you may conduct yourself honorably, however, you have allied yourself with a caucus which does not. How you handle that is of course up to you.

  • Your slam dunk just broke the backboard. Lol.
    I do enjoy reading your comments.
    Not only are you a first rate thinker, but you are a talented writer as well.

  • Of course not. They form their opinions and sometimes cite it and sometimes don’t. You are certainly free to research it.

  • I hear a lot about people having “cited” the Bible, but I never hear exactly WHAT scripture they cited. I suspect it doesn’t exist.

  • Your arguments have been made repeatedly, and rejected repeatedly. If a man can marry a woman, why can’t he marry his sisters? The answer has nothing to do with me.

    If heterosexuals wish to behave badly, it’s not my job to stop them.

    I am not anti religious. I am anti dominionist. If you want anti religious, I suggest you talk to the religious.

  • But the devil is fighting hard to stay relevant. We are slowly winning the war against him, but these fundamentalists are a stubborn bunch. God is on our side though, and eventually they will see how they have perverted the Word to rationalize their prejudice.

  • nope. He uses the same words that he uses to describe lust, casual relationships, and promiscuity… just like he does for straight people. There is no greek word for homosexuality used in the bible.

  • Well, in the end, I view my accountability before God to be a very personal responsibility, how my fellow believers square their conscience with Him is accordingly their responsibility. And at the same time, I’m not above being admonished, nor will I hesitate to admonish others, but I strive to do so kindly.

  • You can believe the Bible as God’s Word or not – that’s your decision. But don’t play Christian, because that’s not an option when you reject God’s Word.
    You prefer to think that God’s Word is flawed – so how do you pick and choose which parts to believe, and which parts to throw out into the trash?
    We might as well all agree to make up our religion according to consensus – so we just all get along with each other.

  • “We might as well all agree to make up our religion according to consensus – so we just all get along with each other.”

    Of course, that is exactly what we do, exactly what religion is…

    Except when y’all are killing each other, or killing and attacking other people who don’t believe exactly what you do.

  • The concept of open commerce eludes you.

    If you have to be “forced” to treat customers in a civil fashion and not violate anti-discrimination laws, then you have no business running a store open to the general public. “Right of association” is not considered valid grounds for discrimination. Its been tried before.

    “Many others could have baked the cake, or done the flowers.

    Separate but equal marketplaces? Where have we heard that before?

    So in essence you are recycling arguments used by segregationists for a new target.

  • Being black is not a sin. Practicing homosexuality is. Regardless of all the current propaganda and political correctness, homosexuality is a choice while being black is skin color you are born with. It is not a civil rights issue; it is a religious liberty issue. Thankfully in our country we are supposed to be able to have and express our views on issues although liberal progressives are doing their best to change that. However, having a personal opinion that homosexuality is ok does not make it a biblical truth. We are free to believe what we want but please quit calling yourself a Christian when you blatantly ignore God’s word on the subject.

  • Beth, when did I say I am a Christian? You just assumed that. Also, I think you should look at the scientific research regarding homosexuality…the nature versus nurture debate. It is not a personal opinion. I believe in science, and I don’t believe in finding (or trying to find all truth in a book, which has been translated so many times in so many languages, that who could possible say what was the original? In other words, what book and translation do you put all your faith in as to its infallibility? I could quote you things that I’m sure you’ve never noticed before in the bible, and you would swear they aren’t from the bible, but I’ll spare you that. Your tone belies your interest in having a civil conversation.

  • Because you say so? Lol!
    If you couldn’t find an article to that effect from my link, you didn’t bother to look. Plus you were so unoriginal that you recycled segregationist arguments elsewhere. I have no use carrying on a conversation with such a lazy person

  • We’re you frozen in a block of ice before 1964?

    Public accommodations like businesses engaging in open commerce run afoul of things like the civil rights act and state anti discrimination laws when they refuse a customer based on the class of people they are.

    Get back to me when you come up with something that wasn’t old hat by the Nixon administration. I can’t even pretend you have a clue.

  • In the florist’s case, Ingersoll had purchased flowers numerous time from Arlene’s Flowers. No problem. When asked to do the flowers for Ingersoll’s wedding she objected to being part of that. The courts in Washington are anything but equitable. That State is almost as far gone as California (where I live). But c’est la vie.

    The Nixon administration? Ahhh, so you’re not a high schooler but an out-of-work hippie who is still upset about the things that happened in the early 70’s. Have fun with that.

  • “Negroes can get food from my place but only at the takeout counter.”

    The florist objected to gays being to be uppity enough to buy a wedding arrangement like other customers! How dare they want to be treated like everyone else!

    Flat out discrimination based on the person requesting the goods and services.

    Nixon administration as in your arguments are old and moldy.

  • My observations as an atheist: It should hardly come as a surprise that leading so-called ‘Christians’, as with so called ‘conservative’ political parties of government, has succumbed to Cultural Marxist subversion and become supportive of the LGBT agenda. It was in the 1960s that old neo-Marxist Rudi Dutschke advocated a “Long march through the institutions of power” to create radical change from within government and society by becoming an integral part of the machinery. That is what has now come to fruition.

    These so-called ‘Christians’ are fake, because they clearly contravene the Christian doctrine in favour of what is essentially an existential dead-end that was promoted by the Frankfurt School neo-Marxists. If they believe in sodomy, gender inversion, and same-sex marriage, they contravene the Will of God as expressed in the Bible, both Old and New Testament, and can only be considered as anti-Christian, because they seek to subvert the religion with degeneracy. Furthermore, these left-mentality lunatics even contravene the ‘Will of Allah’ as expressed in the Quran and Islamic hadiths, which would thereby render them ‘Islamophobic’.

  • The writers of the Bible may not have supported marriage equality, but God does support it. God loves all of God’s children, including those whom God created gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender or intersex.

  • Obeying the Gospel means living by the Golden Rule. Homophobia denies the humanity of fellow human beings whom God made gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender. This means that homophobia violates the Golden Rule, and is therefore incompatible with the Gospel of Christ.

  • That’s simply not true. I am an Evangelical who is a huge advocate for gay rights and support in the church. I am not gay, nor have I ever even been tempted to be gay. That is not my struggle in life. My support for the LGBTQ community is not self-interest, as I gain no benefit from voicing my opinions. It is not only mentally and emotionally immature to assume that the only reason someone would fight for another human being’s rights is out of self-interest, but it’s also spiritually immature. Did every white person who fought for black people’s rights also have a self interest? Thank God (literally, thank Him right now) that isn’t how love works. Love fights for the weak, outcasted, and unloved, regardless of benefit. How can you so easily conclude that just because it’s something that you don’t personally believe in, everyone fighting for it must be in the wrong?

  • The word of God is love. Supporting fairness and justice is not denying the word of God – quite the opposite. Let go of your hate and choose to love.

  • A comprehensive knowledge of literary interpretation also means that a person can discern when a passage of the Bible violates what Jesus taught as the foundational principle for moral behavior – the Golden Rule. Opposition to equality for lgbt people (e.g., marriage equality) violates the Golden Rule.

  • The bible cannot violate what Jesus taught, it was composed by His closest disciples. Marriage inequality as you define it may violate present civil legal constructs, but depending on the spirit in which opposition to marriage equality is expressed, it manifestly does not violate the Golden Rule.

  • It is not a question of hate, it is a question of whether within the precincts of Christ’s Church marriage equality as you describe it fits the normative pattern for God’s intent with respect to the sexual relationships of His Children. According to Scripture, it does not.

  • And some parts of the Bible are mistaken. God created all people, not only heterosexual people. God made many people heterosexual; God made some people bisexual; God made some people gay or lesbian; God made some people transgender; and God made some people intersex. God does not hate any of God’s creation. Whether a particular church or religious organization objects to the existence of lgbt people is irrelevant. Such objection violates the Gospel of Christ.

  • The bible is patently not mistaken in any context, nor do any of the Christians I know object to the existence of lgbt people, they simply adhere to the position that the living out of lives in that manner is not consistent with God’s declared Word for the pattern and practice of His Church.

  • Anybody who has thoroughly and honestly studied the Bible knows that it is not inerrant. The doctrine of inerrancy is inherently dishonest. God did not write the Bible; nor did God dictate it to the various writers. The writers wrote what they believed to be true. Sometimes they were mistaken. Your attitude toward gay and lesbian people is most certainly hate, regardless of how much you dress it up in religious dogma. Let go of your hate and choose to do as Jesus taught.

  • Believe me I know what hate is, and what I express towards lbqt’s is no such thing. At this point I suggest we end our debate as we are unable to persuade each other with respect to our views of the bible, God and His Son. I prefer amicable disengagement to unending disagreement that might lead to words better off left unspoken, and thoughts better off left un thought.

  • Then i will leave you with this thought: God is moving in the world to bring about fairness and justice (e.g., marriage equality) for God’s gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and intersex children. Religious conservatives may at most delay, not prevent, the accomplishment of God’s purpose.

  • God created all people, not only heterosexual people. God made some people homosexual, some people bisexual, some people transgender, and some people intersex. Genuine Christians do not reject and condemn that which God has made.

  • You have missed the whole point of the Gospel of Christ. Let go of your hate and choose to love your neighbor as yourself, including your neighbor whom God created gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender or intersex.

  • Many churches have chosen to love gay and lesbian people, and have thus decided to affirm the marriages of gay couples and the marriages of lesbian couples. In this case, to move away from the historical/biblical position of the church is to move closer to the Gospel of Christ.

  • Boo bear…love tells the truth. You cannot love a person and enable their sin at the same time. It comes down to whether you will believe God’s Word or leave God’s Word. Yes, everyone fighting for normalization of this sexual fetish is “in the wrong.”

  • I think the court got this wrong. They were not refusing to serve them. They were refusing to take part in something that was anathema to their religion. If the same couple had wanted a birthday cake, they would have been served.
    Would you decorate a cake that had offensive things written on it? If so, you have no standards. If not, you are a bigot. The courts got this wrong.

  • I am especially disappointed in Jim Wallis. He became famous for putting scripture first. It is how a Christian learns the mind of God. In taking this stand, he has turned his back on the very foundation of his ministry.

  • That’s just it though…I don’t believe it’s a sin when it’s love between two consenting adults. I would not enable someone to do something that I believed was harmful to themselves or others, or that I knew was a sin. I don’t interpret the few Bible verses on the matter as being a “one size fits all” sin. It’s your opinion that I’m “in the wrong.” You don’t know my heart nor my personal relationship with Jesus though, so I’m grateful that only God can judge me…not flawed humans.

  • God’s word is love. Homophobia rejects God’s word, even when the homophobia is found in the Bible. Some of the writers of the Bible were anti-gay (hostile to God’s gay and lesbian children), but God is not anti-gay. God does not hate any of God’s children, including those whom God created gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender or intersex. Let go of your prejudice and choose to follow Jesus – to love your neighbor as yourself.

  • Beth you are spot on in everything you just said. I was in a lesbian relationship for many years and by the grace of God and a Christian co-worker who witnessed to me for many years, never once said it was ok to be gay she told me the truth. I would end up in hell. People need to read their Bibles and yes they need to stop calling themselves Christians if they agree and support homosexuality. I am a born again believer going on 9 years now.

  • Susan I was a homosexual and it is a choice and yes your environment in which you are brought up does play a roll in it my father was very physically abusive towards my mother so naturally I hated men. I turned to women plain and simple but that does not negate the fact it is a choice. I made we all make choices in every minute of our life. You can choose to accept Christ as your Savior or not but it will be your choice God does not send people to hell they end up there because they choose it.

  • Paula, thank God for that co-worker who loved you enough to speak the truth to you and praise God that you are now a Christian and see the truth about how God sees the sin of homosexuality. So many of us as Christians have become afraid to speak the truth for fear of being ridiculed or accused of “hate speech” or “homophobia”. The Bible says that in the last day people will prefer to “have their ears tickled” rather than hear the truth. We are becoming a very restrictive society where people are no longer free to express their beliefs. Speaking the truth of God’s word does not mean you hate or fear homosexuals, in fact, speaking the truth is showing love. I have friends and family members who are living the homosexual lifestyle. I love them very much and I believe they know that but I will not keep quiet about God’s truth. Again, people who call themselves Christians but ignore the very plain and clear truth of the word of God are Christians in name only. I fear they will be included among those who hear Jesus say, “I never knew you”. So glad you do know him and look forward to meeting you someday, if not in this life then in the next.

  • No, Susan you could not quote me things from the Bible that I have never heard. I am one of those Christians who actually reads and studies the Bible. However, I have no interest in trying to convince you of anything or argue with you about anything in the Bible. It is not my job to try to convict or convince anyone of God’s truth. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. You have God’s word and if you are sincerely seeking him he will show you the truth. As far as my tone, I have no tone I simply spoke truth but I realize that is often offensive to people.

  • Beth, don’t give up on sharing the gospel the far left and homosexuals have an agenda to continue to turn people to accept their views we must stay vigilent and love people.People have very thick scales on their eyes they can’t see the light and continue to live in darkness. I lived in Austin, Tx and worked at a school where homosexuality was accepted and encouraged. I can tell you that all my past homosexual friends no longer speak to me or want any contact with me now that they know I am a born again Believer. Satan is at work in our Churches and I was listening to a CD by Jan Markell Understanding the TImes in 2017 it is a very good CD to listen to talking about Apostasy in the Church. As I read some of the post like the bottom one from Susan about people can’t help being born gay we are all born with the sin nature. It is a matter of choice if decide to follow that lust in our hearts if we satisfy the flesh or serve our heavenly Father. I do at times have same sex attractions but that does not mean I have to act on them.I also get tempted to want to hit someone when I am driving but I don’t its called self-control. I just wish people would read and study the Bible and that more Churches would preach on issues that people are dealing with and not just feel good stuff. I have had a hard time finding a Church due to it not being anything deep so to speak most Churches I visit is like going to a social club. I study and listen to Ravi Zacharias if you could get your family or friends to go to his conf or a former homosexual he is now a believer his name is Joe Dallas he helps to council men. I am on facebook if you would like to chat instead of on this site. I to look forward to meeting you in this life or the next we must stay the course continue to fight the good fight!!!!

  • The Bible does not condemn “homosexuality.” Seriously, it doesn’t. The word “homosexuality” didn’t even show up in English translations of the Bible until 1946, so why do some say the Bible condemns it?

  • I’m not sure how you can rationalize homosexuality not being a sin, while simultaneously saying judgement is a sin. Homosexuality is labeled “detestable” in the Bible. God is our ultimate judge, but we are called to judge and correct each other as long as we can do it biblically. I’m sorry, but your opinion is incorrect and out of line with scripture.

  • Well, honestly, if I’m wrong about it not being a sin then so be it. I refuse to believe that grown, consenting adults can’t fall in love with each other and still live a life with the Lord. If I go to hell for leading people astray, at least I didn’t follow a God that punishes people for the way He created them. Those homosexual verses are taken out of context and mistranslated anyways.

  • They cannot live a life with the Lord. He says they can’t. And He did not create them that way.

    Romans 1 tells us that when people decide not to follow or honor God anymore, He gives them over to their debased minds, and a symptom of that is homosexuality. It also tells us when people decide to forsake knowledge of God, He gives them over to debased minds, symptoms of which are being undiscerning, disobedient, untruthful, unloving, jealous, hateful, murderers,etc.

    A culture’s movement towards accepting a debased mind is a symptom of turning from God, and God allowing it to happen.

    Please do not continue to lead people down this path. Teachers are judged much harsher than others, especially if they teach things that are sinful as good.

    Also, along that line, if two consenting adults wanted to tell God they hated Him, would you condone that? Does it matter that two people agreed to do something together if their act still shows a complete disregard for God’s character?

  • No. I will fight for these people for the rest of my life and protect them from the hatred that you spew towards them. They are loved. They are accepted. They are PERFECT as they are, no matter what you say.

  • BEING GAY IS NOT A SIN. I repeat: BEING GAY IS NOT A SIN. God LOVES every single LGBTQ+ human that he created just as they are. Love digs deeper. Love feels compassion and realizes when things just aren’t right, even if that means challenging a book that was written by a man 2,000 years ago in a different language and was translated by thousands of people who had a specific agenda. It’s not God that hates homosexuality, it’s MAN.

  • Nobody is perfect. And by our own means, none of us is worthy of God. Until someone can repent of their sins, and accept that Christ died for them, they are not acceptable before God. This includes everyone, like the people who engage in premarital sex you mentioned.

    You cannot come before God after repenting of sin and asking for forgiveness, and continue to willingly live in a sin that is specifically addressed multiple times in the Bible as wrong. Whether that’s premarital sex, homosexuality, pedophilia, bestality, or whatever other sexual acts are being committed outside of a one man, one woman marriage.

    You can, however, come before God with a struggle against sin. Someone who believes they are gay can’t just stop the moment they are saved. But, they can repent and accept that Christ died for that sin, and continue to work towards freedom.

    To say an openly gay person who tries to claim Christ is more Christlike than someone else is to misunderstand what it means to be Christlike. Christ never openly disagreed with God’s commands, and He never once sinned. You cannot deliberately sin while claiming to be Christlike. It’s the same as someone who is openly cheating on their wife and trying to claim to be Christlike. It’s just not true.

    Love speaks truth. If you live your life trying to make everyone happy and telling them they are perfect just the way they are, then you are lying and leading them to destruction. There is a loving way to tell someone they are acting against God. Telling someone they are in the wrong is not unloving.

    I’ve given up relationships because I knew they didn’t honor God. It’s very difficult, but it comes down to whether you are going to serve your own desires, or God’s. If you truly want to serve God, and you have to choose between a person or Him, then you choose Him. If you choose the person, then you’ve chosen your own way- not God’s.

  • You’re still not getting it. I do not believe that being gay is a sin. I would never condone something sinful or harmful, and to me, I do not interpret the actual untranslated version of the Bible to say that being gay is a sin. I never will, and nothing you nor any other man on Earth can change my mind. Do not compare being gay to any sin. Because it is not a sin. It never was, and never will be. Nobody is perfect in that they WILL sin, but everybody is perfect at their TRUEST self. Stripped of sin. That’s all I have to say about that. If you still don’t understand, then you just aren’t listening. It’s ok if you choose to believe the mistranslated English text versions of the Bible, but I am telling you that I do NOT believe them. So stop saying that I am willingly condoning sin, because I am NOT.

  • I’m not trying to be confrontational. If the Bible really is mistranslated, then it’s simple to verify. Which verses do you believe are incorrectly translated?

    And which verses say that stripped of sin we are perfect?

    And do you believe that God does not have a purpose for marriage?

  • Also, I did not cut out relationships with gay people. I cut out romantic relationships that did not honor God. As a gay person would have to if they gave up their lifestyle. That was my point

  • All of the verses speaking about homosexuality. I’ve done countless hours of research and have made my conclusions based on such, as well as years of prayer.

    I believe since we are created in God’s image, and he is perfect, that we are perfect when we are stripped of sin. Of course, no one can be completely sinless, that is not what I am saying. I believe our souls will be perfect in Heaven as well.

    I believe God has a purpose for marriage, and that marriage can also be Godly between 2 men and 2 women.

  • Which verses specifically? And what conclusions did you come to?

    And what do you think is the purpose of marriage?

  • Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; [d]neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [by perversion], nor [e]those who participate in homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers [whose words are used as weapons to abuse, insult, humiliate, intimidate, or slander], nor swindlers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you [before you believed]. But you were washed [by the atoning sacrifice of Christ], you were sanctified [set apart for God, and made holy], you were justified [declared free of guilt] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the [Holy] Spirit of our God [the source of the believer’s new life and changed behavior]. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 AMP

  • I wonder how long it took the homophobe who first translated that passage to come up with enough excuses to justify inserting those words there.

    The words sometimes translated “effeminate” and “homosexual” in these passages are obscure and difficult to translate. The first word identifies someone who is morally weak, and has nothing to do with nellie gay men. The second word probably means “people who use power to obtain sex,” though the word is so rare that a confident translation is impossible. Neither word refers specifically to gay men or lesbians.

    Leave LGBTQs alone. I know you’d love for this translation to be true, but you’d be wrong. It’s just another way to control the masses through hatred for those who are different than us.

  • Nobody’s “opinion” is incorrect. I wholeheartedly believe what I do and everything you are saying just makes me believe it all the more.

  • “Neither fornicators (male prostitutes),
    nor idolators (worshippers of false gods),
    nor adulterers (specifically men who cheat on their wives),
    nor effeminate (male kept for sexual relations with another male, or male prostitute for other men),
    nor abusers of themselves with mankind (homosexual, sodomite, root words literally read “any form of male on male sexual intercourse”)…
    shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

    This is the definition of the Greek used in this passage. It is not obscure, as we can easily trace the root words back to their intended meaning, and look at them in context in other passages.

    Also, Romans 1 tells us that homosexuality is a symptom of God giving people over to a debased mind. This results from their rejection of His truth.

    It would seem that this is an accurate verse, as you are rejecting the truth of scripture in favor of emotional preference.

  • Boo Bear
    Here is the problem with two consenting homosexual adults “falling in love” as you call it.
    First of all sexual arousal and good feelings an individual gets from having sex is NOT love. Love is not a feeling. Love is a action. Many good feelings can spring from love. That is true whether straight or homosexual. Love goes way beyond sex. Sex is supposed to be an expression of love in a committed marriage between a man and a woman
    Sex before marriage is wrong in straight relationships; Why would you think it’s okay for homosexuals to engage in multiple or even one sexual relationship with one person they are not married to?
    Before you get in to gay marriage and the Jesus did not condemn gay relationships tirade Jesus upheld marriage between a man and a woman only he spoke of sin of divorce and premarital sex and, homosexual sex, premarital and divorce, is all forgivable but a lifestyle of sin means rebellion against God. You can’t keep engaging in sin and saying it’s ok.

  • Donald, there are many church goers who are religious, they try to be good and kind to everyone. And do their best not to offend anyone. Then there are real Christians, who have a daily walk with Jesus, and who are filled with His Holy Spirit. The real Christian studies the Bible, prays, and worships the Lord daily. The real Christian loves gay people, invites them to their church, but in love, tells them WHAT THE WORD OF GOD SAYS ABOUT IT … in LOVE , they will share with the gay person that the gay lifestyle is sinful and that they must repent and change if they want to walk with the Lord and enter Heaven. YES, the Word of God is offensive, and it’s sharper then a 2-edged sword, it also teaches that few will enter Heaven. In the book of Luke, it tells us to strive to enter through the narrow door that leads to Heaven, for many, will seek to enter and will not be able. In 2nd Thessalonians 2:1, it says, for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. This will happen to those who are persistent in sinning, God will allow those individuals to believe that their sin is alright. Sin is death, and sin blinds. The Word of God calls out several types of sexual sins, adultrey, fornication, incest, etc…Does God love the gay person, of course!!!!! Does God love the bank robber? Of course!!!! Jesus died on that old rugged Cross for the entire world, Jesus paid the price for our rotten sins. No one deserves Heaven, we all deserve Hell, we all deserve Hell equally. No one will be getting into Heaven due to their goodness. We get to Heaven by repenting, by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and by obeying. Donald! REMEMBER… GOD did not send His Son Jesus into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. God said that His Son Jesus is light, and that light has come into the world, but men loved/love darkness rather than the light of Christ, because their deeds were evil. The scriptures also teach that individuals do not come to Christ because He is light, and His light will expose of their sins and may be clearly seen. God is to be feared, He is LOVE, but He is also Holy.. Here it is 2018, more and more churches are accepting homosexuality as being something God condones … we are living in frightening times, the Word of God is being watered down, there is little difference between the church goer and the person who does not believe in Christ. Donald, get alone with God, seek his face … I promise you, He will come and speak to you if you are sincere and are wanting the truth. Just remember … sin blinds people, they can’t see spiritually, sin also deceives people, sin also is death, and it will destroy you and your soul.

  • Thank you!
    Just as people would use the Bible to justify slavery, racism, and sexism, people have mistranslated the Bible to justify homophobia.
    If the devil is involved in anything, it’s involved in the spread of hatred for potential followers of Christ. The devil has turned us against each other and caused us to point at people who have characteristics they can’t change and tell them they are going to hell.
    Sins are not something that can’t be fixed with self teaching.
    You are absolutely right about the translations in the Bible and the original version not being want people want it to say.
    As a devote Christian, I feel nothing but hatred and ungodliness radiating from the comments claiming they are loving while causing so much harm.

  • The context of homosexuality in the first century is much different from the present-day context surrounding same -sex marriage. They are not mutually exclusive and to impose these labels on them is not only anachronistic, but also a false equivalence.

  • Don’t you think that it would be a better position to be in if there existed apologetics that put those who promote the “God’s anti-gay” message into the theological hot-seat as someone facing damnation for what they are doing? Consider the superior position where your doctrine is so solid that your stance on the issue of same-gender-attraction moves from DEFENSE to OFFENSE! This theological position exists! Are you ready to have your current paradigm turned inside-out by the Bible itself? Here: http://g0ys.org/newthang.htm

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