Opinion

Evangelical Christians need an exit ramp from Trumpism

President Donald Trump waves as he walks through the Colonnade from the Oval Office of the White House to announce a deal to temporarily reopen the government on Jan. 25, 2019. (AP Photo/Jacquelyn Martin)

(RNS) — Earlier this month, two important conservative writers explained why honorable Republicans are strongly considering a challenge to Donald Trump for the party’s 2020 presidential nomination.

Writing in The Bulwark, an online publication that took on former staff from the recently shuttered Trump-skeptical conservative journal The Weekly Standard, Jonathan V. Last persuasively argues that a primary challenge to Trump should be expected. Of the last nine incumbent presidents who stood for re-election, five were contested for re-nomination. Trump is almost sure to be one of them; Last has already previewed five potential challengers.

A few days later, in a powerful Washington Post op-ed, Stephen F. Hayes framed the primary challenge as a necessity for the well being of the country and something all people of goodwill should expect and support.

But the coming primary challenge has zero chance of success unless a significant number of white evangelicals, who gave the race-baiting billionaire 81 percent of their votes in 2016, get off of Trump’s Road to Reelection before 2020.

Neither of the two conservative writers above discusses the possibility of evangelicals parting ways with Trumpism. Political observers seem to assume that Trump’s conservative Christian base will follow him no matter what.

And why not? Some of his evangelical disciples have explicitly said there is nothing he could do to lose their support.

President Trump greets people as he arrives to speak during a dinner for evangelical leaders in the State Dining Room of the White House on Aug. 27, 2018, in Washington, D.C. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)

Yet a divorce is not impossible, and it won’t require white conservatives to suddenly back a Democrat. Trump’s white evangelical support has already fallen in the wake of chaos in the administration and the longest government shutdown in history. If the walls continue to close in around the president, he may yet lose even more support.

That may come as a surprise to those who think that Trump has brainwashed evangelicals somehow into believing he will restore a Christian America. Though many commentators, including me, have often questioned how the unchristian Trump could mesmerize professed believers, the truth is that the brainwashing began with the rise of the religious right in the 1980s. If you tell people for 35 years that they must vote for one party as a matter of religious devotion because the other party is so god-awful, they do it.

But what politics grants, politics can take away. The white Christians, Protestant and Catholic, who embraced Donald Trump made a fairly ordinary bargain in our transactional, interest-group-oriented politics, even if it looks strange for people whose Savior preached and practiced holiness: they gave their votes in exchange for a promise to enact their agenda.

That’s why they could be taken back by a candidate who makes a serious effort to offer them a decent Republican alternative, a person who does not destroy their integrity or make a mockery of their supposed values. And for the sake of the country and the Party of Lincoln, every patriot must hope it succeeds.

Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan departs after his inauguration ceremony on Jan. 16, 2019, in Annapolis, Md. Hogan is the first Republican governor to be re-elected in the state since the 1950s. (AP Photo/Patrick Semansky)

Republican leaders have already begun encouraging potential candidates. Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan, who is reportedly considering a primary challenge to Trump, contrasts with the president in ways that should matter. He is a decent and competent man of quiet strength and dignity. Hogan would give social conservatives almost everything Trump has offered but will not demand they squander their integrity as a down payment.

A cancer survivor who leaned on his faith during that battle, he has a story that resonates, and, perhaps more importantly, is a proven fighter — anyone facing off against Trump will have to prove his willingness to stand up to the president’s excesses in ways that will invite and inspire conservative evangelicals and Catholics.

The most obvious group of defectors are those who will jump at any other candidate with conservative policy views. For these people, the 2016 nominating contest led them to Trump by default. In that crowded primary season, a majority of voters preferred a candidate other than Donald Trump, but studies show that some subset of voters simply wants to “back a winner.”

If 2019 unfolds badly for Trump and he looks weak in 2020, many voters, even evangelicals, will flock to a superior candidate, especially if she or he looks, talks and acts like a winner.

President Trump arrives to speak at a campaign rally at Bojangles’ Coliseum on Oct. 26, 2018, in Charlotte, N.C. (AP Photo/Evan Vucci)

Others agreed to vote for Trump because they expected that he would rise to the stature of the office. They may now accept that he won’t. Even those who expected a certain amount of incompetence, corruption, and lies may be persuaded to think that a line has been crossed.

My conversations with Washington insiders have convinced me that the primary challenge will happen. If it does, Trump-skeptical evangelical leaders who are despondent about the past three years need to do everything they can to support the effort, even if behind the scenes.

I have opposed evangelical Trumpism from the beginning. Some of those supporters are members of my own family. As long as there is a chance for decency and honor to prevail, I will make the case to them. I will not give up on my family, just as I will not give up on my country.

I will work alongside evangelical friends who stand on the biblical promise, “Thou hast girded me with strength unto the battle” (Psalm 18:39). The 2020 GOP primary is a fight for the soul of conservatism. Evangelicals should not sit it out, and it cannot be won without them.

The views expressed in this commentary do not necessarily represent those of Religion News Service.

About the author

Jacob Lupfer

A contributing editor at RNS, Jacob Lupfer is a writer and consultant in Baltimore. His website is www.jacoblupfer.com. Follow him on Twitter at @jlupf. The views expressed in this commentary do not necessarily represent those of Religion News Service.

194 Comments

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  • Pretty funny.
    Trump appealed to the evangelicals precisely for reasons that would appeal to them: he promised them power, money, dominion, and revenge on them uppity wimmens, the geyz, and brown people. He promised them what they wanted, what they really valued far more than the “moral principles” they are always yapping on about, and he has been delivering.
    This is also pretty funny: “Even those who expected a certain amount of incompetence, corruption, and lies may be persuaded to think that a line has been crossed.” so they expected it then, but waited until a “certain line has been crossed”.
    Ok, then!

  • Judas Iscariot sold out Jesus for thirty-three pieces of silver and the hope of gaining political power against the Romans, something Jesus’ seemingly passive approach (as Judas saw it) didn’t offer him. Evangelical Christians sold out every one of their so-called moral “principles” for the sake of gaining political power when they voted for Donald Trump. Perhaps they would do well to remember this verse from the Gospel of Mark:

    Woe to that man who betrays the Son! It would be better for him if he had not been born.’

    Thankfully there is an exit ramp available: it’s called contrition, something well known to evangelicals – at least in theory.

  • Nah, we are not going to let them live this one down. Because they will try to pretend it never happened a few years down the road. When they try to pretend to be “values voters” again.

    Trump has turned the subtext of evangelical political aspirations and turned it into a glaring billboard of text. It has never been about religious belief, values, or moral imperatives. Its always been a power grab and used public avenues for bigotry as an appeal.

  • And we’re not going to let you live the Covington Catholic debacle down.

    And, as with BiO, Commentary on the evangelicals and Trump by somebody who hates them both, you.

  • So far Trump has named many excellent Judges at various levels; is attempting to reverse and correct our country’s bone-headed neocon foreign policy in Afghanistan and Syria; worked to get European nations to pay their fair share for their defense; and is still trying to improve the immigration situation by improving border security and building more effective barriers (despite fierce partisan opposition).

    Don’t see the need for any “exit ramp” as far as I’m concerned.

    And I never sold out ANY moral principles in supporting his policies, thank you very much.

  • Looks like Jacob Lupfer’s in a great big hurry to get rid of his real or imagined enemy. 2020 national election ain’t fast enough for Lupfer & Liberals.

    That’s fine. Ain’t gonna happen, unless American Christians all go insane simultaneously, in which case it won’t make any difference anyway.

  • Just wondering who the decent and honorable democrats are?
    Booker? Nope.
    Harris? Nope.
    Pokahontas? Fat chance.
    Clinton part 2? Don’t make me laugh.
    Bernie? Nah.
    Maybe Tulsi Gabbard; but she shot herself in the foot last week.

    As an FYI to Jacob and the hacks at the former weekly standard; the only person on that list that would have any shot is Nikki Haley – they can keep the rest of the democrat wanna-be’s.

  • Trump’s picks for judges have been some of the worst rated by the American Bar Association for knowledge of the law
    https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/trump-picks-more-not-qualified-judges-1

    Trump is trying to improve the immigration situation by hiring illegal aliens
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/03/us/trump-golf-club-illegal-immigrant-employee.html

    Trump lies like a cheap rug about European defense costs
    https://www.npr.org/2018/07/11/628137185/fact-check-trumps-claims-on-nato-spending

    Trump is likely to get impeached and probably going to prison
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/nyregion/michael-cohen-sentence.html

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/new-york-prosecutors-allen-weisselberg-trump/568516/

  • So you have nothing cogent in response. OK.

    Tell me how any of the stories I linked to are somehow untrue.

  • ALL good-hearted persons living worldwide on earth today desperately NEED an “exit ramp” from ALL of man’s governments!!!

    It is very obvious these days that ALL of man’s governments CANNOT rule over their masses with love, justice, compassion, forgiveness, humility, righteousness, truth, peace, and the power to accomplish their “goals; but, excuse me, their main “focus” is only their own selfish, greedy, and corrupt self-interests; and some can make “nuclear threats”!!😱😱😱

    That is why I, personally, have never supported or never even voted for ANY of them, born and raised in the U.S., the daughter of immigrants! But why?

    Because my most awesome parents on planet Earth gratefully taught me about God’s kingdom, or heavenly government (Matthew 4:17) from the most fantastic and amazing book ever, or God’s Word, the entire Bible, when I was a young person (now 64 years young, going on 33, and holding!!).

    Wow! I learned about a great heavenly government by God, who truly loves his earthly kids on planet earth, with ALL the great qualities described above! Why in the world would I personally ever “support” anything else? Foggetaboutit!!!

    I am just presently elated, happy, experiencing true peace of mind, and very thankful, that God and his government will actually soon put an end to ALL of man’s governments and replace them (Daniel 2:44)!!!

    Then, finally, ALL good-hearted persons on planet earth (no matter their race, culture, or nation), and without ANY WALLS or anything else to separate or divide them, will receive the kind of unimaginable rule I described above, which is totally lacking worldwide now (Isaiah 11:1-5), by God’s Son, Christ Jesus, (Isaiah 9:6, 7), its King; who also loves us imperfect humans so much, that he gave his life as the perfect ransom for all of us (Matthew 20:28)!!

    Its rule will then be the ONLY in human history that all of us humans will experience worldwide “peace” on earth (Micah 4:3, 4); experience complete and loving brotherhood of man; as well as all be blessed with perfect health, youth, and life on a paradise earth, that is completely cleansed of all pollution and all wicked ones, until the end of time (Revelation 21:3, 4)!!
    🙏🙏🙏

    Bah ALL human governments, who are now on their “last legs,” just like the Titanic was after it hit an iceberg!!!😱😫😖😵

  • God doesn’t want me hating people from other places or who are other races or who are poor or to practice cruelty to those suffering. <<<<< That's a pretty big exit ramp, IMO.

  • They won’t get nor do they want the exit ramp. Not only has Trumpism taken over the Republican Party, it has also taken over the Evangelical Church. He is now the de-facto Savior and a new Road to Salvation has been erected.

    Welcome to the Apocalypse, everybody.

  • She is a transmission belt for buckets of left wing, Clintonista, and anti-religious propaganda.

  • What this approach IS accomplishing is empowering the lunatics on the left.

    Lupfer may simply be the stalking horse for Mitt Romney, who should have the integrity to NOT get into with the President again.

  • the sad part is, Bernie, the near 80-year old Jewish socialist from NYC via Vermont is the closest thing the Left has to a moral candidate. I hope someone new emerges, but I don’t see it.

  • Why address your own lack of moral fiber and professed values when you can deflect the conversation and go on the attack?

    Why would the opinion of an unapologetic supporter of President Liesaminute concerning Democrats mean anything?

  • Building “more effective barriers”?

    For two years, the republicans controlled congress. The border wall never came up. What did come up were tax cuts for IMPOTUS and his buddies, and an attempt to gut healthcare.

    The party of fiscal responsibility delivered another $1.25 trillion deficit. The party of god funded planned parenthood again a number of times? Eight? IMPOTUS said he would own the shutdown, and then proceeded to blame everyone else for it.

    Not to mention…

  • Lupifer is one of you guys who is looking to save face from the embarrassing actions of those like yourself. Someone who apparently still has some sense of shame and self-awareness.

    Poor guy.

  • There is no “off-ramp” from the ism part of Trumpism with any other Republican governance. The Evangelicals’ embrace of Republicanism was the ON-RAMP to Trumpism. If Evangelicals want to get away from political hatefulness, they are going to need to FIRST stop lying about Every Word of This Bible is True and Equally Reliable and Relevant to Every Other Word Therein. Then they will need to stop lying about Economic Policy Adopted For The Rich Will Produce Jesus-Endorsed Outcomes For The Poor. Then they will need to admit that freedom from religion is the political path to freedom of religion. Then they will need to admit that environmentalism really does matter. Then they will need to admit that God created all the other people on earth besides Americans and actually has a concern about them too——or—–the “God Created” stuff is a complete hoax.

    Once they do those things. they will understand why they never should have been Republicans. At this time, the chances of Evangelicals waking up in such a manner is slim to none. So, it is incumbent on everyone sick of Trumpism to outvote all Evangelical Republicans—–period. (This is not different, by the way, from the ongoing need for citizens in Islamic countries to finally outvote Public Islam).

  • https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/trump-picks-more-not-qualified-judges-1

    The percentage, not the number, is relevant. In addition you may want to look at what constitutes “qualified”, both then and now.

    https://www{DOT}nytimes.com/2019/01/03/us/trump-golf-club-illegal-immigrant-employee.html

    No indication at all that Trump is involved in the actual management of this club, or was aware of anything it did or did not do with employess.

    https://www{DOT}npr.org/2018/07/11/628137185/fact-check-trumps-claims-on-nato-spending

    “NATO members did make a commitment four years ago to spend at least 2 percent of their GDP on defense by 2024. Just nine of the military alliance’s 29 members are expected to reach or surpass that target this year.”

    In other words Trump was right. More spin from NPR, which is so biased it finally ended comments on its website after multiple embarrassing exposures of fuding, spinning, and outright lying.

    https://www{DOT}nytimes.com/2018/12/07/nyregion/michael-cohen-sentence.html

    Prosecutors say all sort of things. Were they true we would skip trials. What the actual articled did NOT support was your “Trump is likely to get impeached and probably going to prison.”

    https://www{DOT}theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/new-york-prosecutors-allen-weisselberg-trump/568516/

    Natasha Bertrand is a certified anti-Trump purveyor of propaganda. Take a look at her articles and see how few turn out they way she spun them:

    https://www{DOT}theatlantic.com/author/natasha-bertrand/

    So we have editorials disguised as news, misrepresentations on your part of the content of articles, and recaps of prosecutorial assertions.

    More nonsense from the Spinherin.

  • IMPOTUS – I love it! Thank you for reminding everyone of something the media routinely ignore – the fact that Trump could have and should have gotten his stupid wall when he had TWO FULL YEARS of solid Republican control in Congress. He didn’t get it, and so rather than blame Paul Ryan and Mitch McTurtle, he waited until the very instant Democrats controlled the House before he had his childish temper tantrum by shutting down the government. Why this didn’t get mentioned in the news every single day of the shutdown is beyond me, other than the fact that the media, once again, are negligent in doing their job.

  • For two years under Barack Obama the Democrats controlled Congress.

    Improving border security never came up.

  • Considering that evangelicals voted for him not because of his faith or conduct but because he seemed ready to fight for issues important to them (e.g., pro-life, religious freedom, the traditional family, limited government). He has generally carried through on these issues. He is not looked at as a role model in every way but unlike GOP leaders before him, he does not forget the voters who supported him after the election. And who else on the national stage can make these claims?

  • The brain washing started long before tRump via the preaching of Billy Graham. Both my paternal grandfather and his identical twin had nothing to do with Graham and his insertion of politics in the SBC. Both were graduates of the Louisville Baptist Seminary which was later destroyed by Page Patterson and both were firmly against the inclusion of politics in religion. The same was true of the Danbury Baptists when they wrote the letter to Thomas Jefferson. If one bothers to study history at all the current mixture of religion & politics can be directly traced back to the heretics John Calvin & Oliver Cromwell. The wall we need is one between religion, especially evangelical/calvinism, and our local, state and federal governments. Until that wall is re-established all of us are at risk of loosing our freedoms as these evangelicals/calvinists truly want to establish a theocracy and impose their heretical/blasphemous/sacrilegious beliefs on everyone.

  • Your nonsensical posts are simply “what-aboutism” which is used when the commentator has no logical or fact based platform on which to stand.

  • “What-aboutism” is term used by people pointing out the speck in someone else’s eye while disregarding the plank in their own eye.

  • Nope, a complete fail—that reports, rather than explains. You can’t figure out how to peel people away from Trump unless you understand WHY they are following him to begin with.

  • A clear and concise explanation of why many people – not just evangelcals – voted for Trump.

    Unfortunately, many on the left seem completely unable to grasp it.

  • Morals and values from Hillary Clinton?

    The Democrats in general?

    You?

    Ha, ha, ha ….. ha!!

    https://www{DOT}hotair.com/archives/2019/01/22/poll-74-dems-consider-voting-ocasio-cortez-president-eligible/

  • The funny thing is; the bankrupt left decries trump supporters while having supported the likes of Barak Obama and Hillary Clinton – hardly the standard-bearers of morality and righteousness.

  • Not to mention being all goo-goo-eyed over serial predator Bill.

    Personally, I assume anyone running for political office to be of dubious moral character, so I set aside that matter, and vote for candidates based on what their policies are.

  • Your first contribution to this comment board…and it’s immediately back to “you’re a bad person (and I’m a good one).” You need a pulpit for your supercilious sermonizing. That way, you can preach your moral superiority to your own congregation, while the rest of us stay (far) away from your pretentious harangues.

  • I can’t help it if you want to use government power to do bad things and harm the most of us. But that is the current platform of Trump and associates.

    It’s not just a difference in opinion and political alignment but an explicitly stated goal implemented at times with sheer malice as the intent.

    You don’t like being lectured about how you are a bad person then don’t support terrible things.

    You are such a whiner.

  • Certainly Lupfer is a shame when he’s all ranting on Trump. Too much Alt-Democrat caffeine in his coffee.

  • There is no “off-ramp” from the ism part of Trumpism with any other Republican governance. The Evangelicals’ embrace of Republicanism was the ON-RAMP to Trumpism. If Evangelicals want to get away from political hatefulness, they are going to need to FIRST stop lying about Every Word of This Bible is True and Equally Reliable and Relevant to Every Other Word Therein. Then they will need to stop lying about Economics For The Rich Will Produce Jesus-Endorsed Outcomes For The Poor. Then they will need to admit that freedom from religion is the political path to freedom of religion. Then they will need to admit that environmentalism really does matter. Then they will need to admit that God created all the other people besides Americans and actually has a concern about them too——or—–the “God Created” stuff is a complete hoax.

    Once they do those things. they will understand why they never should have been Republicans. At this time, the chances of Evangelicals waking up in such a manner en masse are slim to none. So, it is incumbent on everyone sick of Trumpism to outvote all Evangelical Republicans—–period. (This is not different, by the way, from the ongoing need for citizens in Islamic countries to finally outvote Public Islam.)

  • My experience has been that when you ask supporters of the Orange Liar to support their claims, they never will or can. Instead, they resort to nonsense like “But JFK…” or “Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky…”

    Trump supporters are among the most poorly-informed voters I’ve ever encountered.

  • Your moral high-horse is your only ride, isn’t it, Johnnie-one-note? Your endlessly repetitive whimper about the “bad attitude” of Conservatives, is the Progressive version of “tone-trolling” – and is the only “whine” happening on this thread.

  • Reposting exactly the exact same drivel that you posted 7 hours earlier does not magically make it true.

    Sorry.

    Do Better.

  • It helps when one supports patently immoral, malicious and deliberately harmful positions. We have a government more interested in “owning the libs” than doing anything for the common good.

  • “Trump supporters are among the most poorly-informed voters I’ve ever encountered.”

    Or worse, some of the most unabashed liars I have encountered as well. People who know the relevant facts but choose to deny or ignore them.

  • That, too.

    It is clear, if you look closely at evangelicals, that they are victims of a number of things. Most are clearly deeply resentful of lots of things; they are not at all logical, but deeply emotional, and many clearly are racists. Several recent good psychology studies have shown that they are damaged folks.

    I remember, very clearly pastor BillyBob holding his bible up during the deseg. battles of the late fifties and early ’60’s and ranting “th’ baaaaahble sez the races must be separated….”

  • I’m doing fine. You might want to find someone else to read who isn’t me. There are others who will write things you like much better.

  • “…he does not forget the voters….”

    as his support shrinks and more and more of the people who voted for him as a protest vote make it clear that he will not get their vote in 2020, trump is holding on that core group of voters and will cater to them . he has no choice .

  • to the contrary, when obama was in office he wanted a comprehensive bill that included immigration reform as well as border security . the g.o.p. would not move beyond the single issue of “illegal immigration” . the g.o.p. wanted something to attack the democrats with (something that you think will still work for you) .

    the democrats wanted to fix the problem .

  • not at all . i am in a study group that has several evangelicals in it . they and many of their friends are moving away from trump . this is not to say that all are, but trump support seems not to be as rock solid as the polls suggest .

  • booker ? perhaps .
    harris ? perhaps .
    warren ? very good chance . most competent of any democrat or republican likely to run .
    clinton ? too mainstream to make a difference .
    bernie ? a good and decent man . likely won’t run .
    tulsi gabbard ? always a long shot .
    kirsten gillibrand ? center of the road . hard worker .
    sherod brown ? just won re-election by several points in a state that trump easily took in 2016 .

    a rich field . any one of them should be able to take trump .

  • you are worried about Spuddie’s tone . you should worry that he is describing the political situation better than you .

  • no, “what-aboutism” is a term about people changing the subject, usually because they have nothing to say .

  • some american christians had temporary insanity in 2016 . of course many are waking up or will by 2020.

  • many were not following him . many were simply voting against hillary . she will not be on the ballot in 2020 . it is the g.o.p. who have the problem .

    where to get replacement voters .

  • you should go look for an article about that subject . here you just look like one in a chorus line who just stumbled .

  • Spuddie and I have been back and forth on a variety of subjects for a long time. I’m not “worried” about anything he says – I’m just throwing one of his favorite invectives back at him, since he routinely accuses his opponents of the same rhetorical sins he routinely commits. Your ignorance of that history puts you at a disadvantage and renders your comments irrelevant.

  • I can’t help it if you want to use government power to do bad things and harm the most of us.”

    https://www{DOT}powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/01/kamala-harris-you-cant-keep-your-health-insurance-even-if-you-like-it.php

  • Exactly. It is a term which indicates that one is extremely irritated by a charge of hypocrisy but can not refute it.

    Around here in particular, it is also something which people attack others about while freely engaging it themselves.

    Hypocrisy times two.

  • You seem to be assuming that they voted against Clinton because they didn’t like her personally, and so any other Democrat would get those voters back. That is NOT a safe assumption, especially in the states that Trump flipped. For THOSE voters, the best place to look for their motivation is Springsteen’s music, and I don’t see the Democrats doing anything to woo them—if anything, they’re trying to drive them even further away.

  • I have never defended Trump’s morals, silly, – see my previous posts here. Do try to keep up.

    I have always only defended his policies, which I find highly commendable.

    Kinda like Dems supported the slime-bucket Bill’s policies -except they’re still goo-goo-eyed over him.

  • Evangelicals voted for him because he offends liberals and promised to get rid of the brown people. He didn’t run on any form of “traditional values”. He ran on building a wall to keep out Mexicans, issuing a travel ban to keep out Muslims, and pissing off all the people their religion has taught them to hate. That’s what Trump stands for, and that’s why Evangelicals love him.

  • Is RNS even religious? You do realize that the D side of aisle thinks its OK to kill babies up to the moment of delivery. What has Trump supported that is comparable?

  • “I have never defended Trump’s morals, silly, – see my previous posts here.”

    as your comments are hidden, you claim is hallow and impossible to verify .

    “…only defended his policies, which I find highly commendable.”

    such as separating parents from children at the border ? having a private talk with putin, without aides, and destroying the translator notes after ?

    and generally alienating our friends and encouraging our enemies ? and closing down the government because he so believes in his own myth of making a deal that he bumbles into political situations that he does not understand .

    the only long-term value i found in bill was that he so successful at stealing the right wing slogans and using that against them that it made the right wing hyperventilate .

    which you guys are still doing .

  • and still not what the article was about and not what i was saying .

    your point, right or wrong, is as irrelevant to this placement as an ad for prostate problems in a new baby ward .

  • you are on a public board with a particular topic . here Spuddie does a better job at responding to the subject than you .

    i could care less, but not much, to your history .

  • You can clearly see my previous posts here which I referred to; they are just a few posts above. Don’t be so lazy.

    His immigration policies are so far excellent; his trying to move us away from the failed endless war neocon foreign policies in Afghanistan, Syria, etc, are long overdue; his attempt to move us away from the old knee-jerk Russophobic policies of the past are on the right track but don’t go far enough; closing down the government because Congress refuses to act responsibly on border security and building a wall was an act of courage that I applaud him for.

    You’re still goo-goo-eyed about Bill and his enabler, aren’t you?

  • I thought you’d like it.

    My favorite part was the stop action freeze with Mario Brothers theme snippet.

  • (I think) “Spuddie does a better job at responding to the subject than you.”

    Well, of course you do – you’re a member of his congregation, who enjoys hearing how much better you are than those outside your circle of virtue (signaling). Now go attend his services like a good little parishioner.

  • Do you have a citation for “D side of aisle thinks its OK to kill babies up to the moment of delivery”? Because Jesus doesn’t like it when you bear false witness, slander, and revile.

    Two years of trump and republican control of congress with planned parenthood being funded what– eight times?– ought to tell you what both stand for. from the catholic New Agency: “Jan 4, 2018 – Planned Parenthood reported that it received more than $500 million in government funding last year”.

    that would be 2017. Truymp was president. Republicans controlled both houses of congress.

  • The poster boy for Trumpism.
    trump is Pro-life? Two years of trump and republican control of congress with planned parenthood being funded what– eight times?– ought to tell you what both stand for. from the catholic New Agency: “Jan 4, 2018 – Planned Parenthood reported that it received more than $500 million in government funding last year”. That would be 2017. Trump was president. Republicans controlled both houses of congress. Trump loves his gun lobbies as well– 30,000 dead americans worth.
    Trump is for limited government– yup, one just limited to someone else’s vagina, pipe, jock strap, and marriage.
    The traditional family? Cheated on wife number one, divorced her, married wife number 2, who he cheated on, and divorced. Married wife #3, a former soft core lesbian porn star, cheated on her with a prostitute whom he paid off, and proclaimed himself a sexual assaulter.

  • Wrong again – you do not make the rules!!

    The christians, esp the evangelical fundies ARE the whole complete problem, and must be stopped and eliminated….
    This is the 21st century……

  • I suppose if you do not value the rights of your fellow citizens, the Constitution, and facts you’re right.

  • yes . in many cases that was, i believe, the reality . one michigan woman expressed it graphically saying that she voted with her middle finger . the right wing media and “think” tanks worked for years, and spent a ton of money, to keep the clinton’s from being successful . it didn’t work for bill . but it paid off with hillary in 2016 big time .

    as far as the chances for democratic success in 2020, we are all, to rip off a phrase, looking through a glass darkly . but i believe that the 85,000 total vote margin that trump got in wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania altogether has always meant danger to him .

    he is not gaining voters in those states and is likely losing them by the thousands .

    as far as the democrat candidates to come, this will be a whole crop (even the elderly among them) . the neo-liberals as we saw in both clintons and in gore are not in vogue . the progressives as we see now will make their way or not by talking and listening and acting as the voice of a wide cross section of the voters .

    gone will be the number crushers of new york and washington . back we be the door to door tradition of actual democracy . if i am wrong here then you may be right that the democrats have again seize defeat from the jaws of victory .

  • “You can clearly see my previous posts here….”

    i am not interested in your opinion for the day . you have all the markings of one who is trolling for chaos . the hidden history . the attempts at disparaging put-downs . the pushbacks noted for their rare facts . your hagiographic opinions of trump .

    i have rarely praised bill . if you were not so lazy and would check what i have written you would know that .

    trump is building the record as the worse president yet . and still people praise his successes . that don’t exist .

  • “…and must be stopped and eliminated….”

    and boy am i’m glad you don’t make the rules . the 21st century is not yours alone .

    and you do “just look like one in a chorus line who just stumbled .”

  • OttoZeit you really don’t get it .

    I’m not in with Spuddie nor he with me . the question is reasonable dialogue between people who disagree .

    you and Spuddie don’t do that well . still Spuddie above made some political points and you respond with whining yourself about his tone .

  • And your gods…?
    you forgot to bring evidence to prove that your gods exist….

    So no need for any dance and song here from the un-educated/religious…..

  • Mention of a god for any reason and you had best show your evidence to prove the existence of your gods….

    {until then – you will be regarded as the obvious liars that you are…}

  • my god is the god of abraham, issac and jacob as interpreted by jesus of nazareth . there is no evidence that any god exists . but in the god i mentioned i have faith .

    the only song and dance here seems to be yours . you may find youself amusing . if so i am glad you have high self-esteem even if not many will share it .

  • i have been amused that she is contemplating a re-match . emotionally i understand . it has to be hard to have won the popular vote by 2.9 million and yet lose by default in the electoral college . and then only 85,000 votes in three states made the difference .

    but no she won’t be on the ballot in 2020 . too many good candidates are lining up in the democratic race for the primaries . many of them actually from the democratic wing of the democratic party . something we haven’t seen for decades .

    i would be happy if we saw the last of the neo liberals .

  • Yes – exactly – you have no proof for your gods —- So until you show that evidence to prove your gods’ existence – you will be treated as the liar that you are….

    [some people do not understand that if one makes a claims then that claim must be proven – or considered fake and a fraud]

  • You mean “progressives”–REAL progressives seek to protect the lives of babies. What we are seeing in so many Blue states are REgressives, not progressives.

    But beyond that, you’ve offered an example of someone that voted against Clinton rather than for Trump, but haven’t said why you think that Michigan woman rejected Clinton. Why wouldn’t other Democrats have the same problem Clinton did? After all, if I had voted for Trump it would have been on essentially the same grounds as your example–he wasn’t Clinton.

  • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4173112/?fbclid=IwAR3I9qs-NJYyWhtuvAXn4gehdGoBPS-AzZM8efJoti-LDSk6n_qQp5GIpts

    Religious delusions are common and are considered to be particularly difficult to treat.

    ——

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/cogs.12138

    ”…exposure to religious ideas has a powerful impact on children’s differentiation between reality and fiction, not just for religious stories but also for fantastical stories.”

    Keep the Lies about gods away from children!

  • “Amazing. Everything you said was wrong.”

    Exempli Gratia: “your hagiographic opinions of trump”

    This said by you, despite the fact that I do not consider Trump of commendable, saintly character, and thus can have no “hagiographic opinions” as being a saintly person.

    It’s almost like you don’t know the meaning of the word “hagiography” – the life of one who is a saint (hagios).

    I commend his policies, not his person.

    And next time, don’t use big words you don’t understand.

  • do you even read what others write ?

    i stated that i don’t believe that there is any evidence for god’s existence . am i a liar to you for saying that ?

    are you even trying to make sense ?

  • Here is what you said – my god is the god of abraham, issac and jacob as interpreted by jesus of nazareth!

    So – any mention of any gods must be accompanied by evidence for that god….
    DID you bring it ??
    No!
    Therefore….

    [why are you ranting…?][some people do not understand that if one makes a claims then that claim must be proven – or considered fake and a fraud]

  • aren’t you the one who just wrote “Wrong again – you do not make the rules!!”

    neither Brien do you . and again in bringing to this article something that the article was not talking about .

    you simply look the dancer out of step .

  • Anyone else want to mention their gods??

    Bring proof of that god First! [or be called what you obviously are – A Liar!]

  • why should i engage someone who only wants to argue ? who insists on their own rules ? who believes he can win an argument by being obnoxious ?

  • depends on what you mean by paleo-progressives .

    if social security is paleo, count me in .
    if progressive tax (as recommended by benjamin franklin, thomas jefferson and theodore roosevelt), count me in .
    if the recognition that the united states is not a christian nation (as it states in a treaty passed by the ninth congress (i think ninth) and signed by president john adams, count me in .
    if the mandated medical insurance first on u.s. merchant marine in 1798, paralleled in 1811 by the first veteran’s hospital, finally in the 1960s by medicare for seniors, count me in .
    if it means obamacare and what it should become , count me in .

    so it all depends on what paleo means in your mind .

    to me it means building on the best of the past, learning from our mistakes, and making a better future .

  • you are the one deflecting from the subject of the article : the need for evangelicals to have a way to leave behind their support of trump and his failing policies .

    have you nothing to say about that ?

  • or try to keep up with the ways words are now being used .

    merriam webster : idealizing or idolizing biography an account that smacks of hagiography

    cambridge dictionary : very admiring of someone and representing the person as perfect or much better than they really are

    the word was used because you and others suggest that trump knows what he is doing and that he has had some notable successes .

    but trump is a failure so far but in all but one area . and trump had little to do with that but to sign his name . that success is all due to the federalist society that was preparing for this moment for 30 years – this moment being when they had the senate and the presidency and could get their people on the federal bench .

    in another area is the halfdass tax bill . paul ryan got it passed after years of proposing, and this time there was a president to sign it . it is becoming a disaster around their necks . they will live with people learning that it was not the make american great again thing that some thought . and of course they will blame democrats for its failure .

    but the hagiographic opinions of trump is precisely the right way of talking about the true believers and their praise of trump .

  • Who is engaging ? – I certainly am not!
    I am just calling you an obvious liar for not be able to prove your gods….

  • “So – any mention of any gods must be accompanied….” your rules .

    nothing to do with this article . if you wish to discuss this article please do . otherwise i will talk of it and allow you to rank on your own time .

  • No wonder you have to believe in gods…. dumdum –
    Just Prove your gods!!! Simple – even for simpletons (I obviously do not care about your opinions as they are obviously based on lies….)

  • Yep _ I know – the usual childish stunts of the evangelicals/fundies/religious idiots!
    Amazing the number of deflections and the level of stupidity that they can cram in their deflections….

    It is quite simple – Mention a god – bring proof for the claims of gods….[we in the real world already know that they cannot…]

  • i agree that it is quite difficult to displace an incumbent president in the primaries . too many people owe the president too much, and in any case even those with their own support base still fear the power of the president to make life hard for them .

    so i am not thinking that a challenge to trump is likely .

  • needless to say the next year and a half – the time to the general election – will be very interesting . but unless there is a clear and steady line of decay in the trump presidency, i don’t see the likelihood of a g.o.p. challenge in the primaries . maybe a third party attempt if someone has the money to commit to such, a la ross perot .

  • the main problem with hillary was that she is a wonk . i feel ashamed to suggest that as someone who knows the government inside out is
    perhaps just what we need after these couple of years watching rank amateurs attempt to steer the ship of state .

    she would have been a great technocrat president, but what we needed was someone who spoke to the felt needs of the american people . her speeches were not bad in that regard, but not from the heart that would appeal to the housewife to the plumber in michigan who saw the goodmiddle class existence slipping away .

  • Yep – no gods here…. Just silly commentary!!!
    Hello! gOD! Hello…!

    Are you there?

    Either show yourself [or give your ‘believers’ the evidence]

    OR

    your ‘believers are LIARS!

  • i think that the absence of engagement on the plight of the evangelicals speaks volumes . they have been an engaged group of people who have found their choice of president not good for them, except on a few specific issues that won’t direct benefit them .

    so how to relate to their problems and how to show them our ideas of a better way to overcome their critique of america’s direction .

  • somehow the subject of making america work for all people never bores me . americans have a right to demand that government work for them . but of course in a country of 320 million people there will many different groups that have very opposite ideas of what works for them . dialogue becomes especially important . to be able to listen and to talk and work beyond the differences .

  • You’re defending him – and affirming his point of view. That’s enough to “align” the two of you, whether you’re “with” him or not.

    And your contrived complaint about my “tone” comment is completely off target. The remark was a karmic mirror, held up to reflect Spuddie’s own rhetorical transgressions back at him. One more time: “I’m a good person and you’re not” is his only argument – but it’s NOT an argument. It’s self-congratulatory moral preening, having no more rhetorical impact than “I think well of myself.”

  • Heretics?! That word implies one god person is objecting to another god person…..
    there are no gods!!!!

  • “The remark was a karmic mirror….”

    and an example of how you see the speck in another’s eye and not the beam in your own .

    if someone is beating up someone on a highway, i don’t stop and ask i will agree with the one beaten . i intervene . make of that what you want . but i would urge you to work more toward dialogue and try less to pummel the other with your arguments .

  • and we see how a religionist proves their gods……
    ”….
    ….”
    Nothing to see here!!!

    Now to get rid of Tramp and his Dominionist liars……

  • “why should i engage someone who only wants to argue ? ”

    Pot and Kettle — because you only want to argue with people you find disagreeable. Read your own posts!

  • “make of that what you want.”

    It’s hard to make anything of it – how did physical violence get into a discussion about the validity of rhetorical tactics?

    Oh…you intruded it. Exposing someone’s rhetorical fails is equivalent to “beating them up” in your mind? Wow. I’ve already tried “dialogue” with Spuddie (there’s that pesky “history,” once again). All it did was to provoke more moral preening, pretending to be an “argument”. So yeah, I’ll “pummel” that kind of rhetorical irrelevancy all day long – with no apologies. It’s called “disrupting the echo in the echo-chamber.” Someone needs to. I guess I’m “doing the work that Progressives won’t.”

  • You certainly do try to cast your anti-Catholicism as something else.

    Unfortunately after being at it for over half a century some of it slipped out, and is on the record.

  • Trump is pro money, pro corruption, pro nepotism, and pro Russia.

    The working class people who supported Trump have seen their taxes rise to fund tax cuts for the rich. They’ve seen jobs lost to Trump’s pointless tarrif wars. They will probably continue to vote against their own interests because fear and “blame the fereners” racism still sells.

    But don’t call that “loyalty.” Trump is inacaple of loyalty to anyone not named Trump.

  • We heard nothing but “morals morals morals” from repubs, for decades, until they chose a dishonest, lying, thrice married pussy grabber with the hots for his own daughter. Then all the sudden morals don’t matter.

    It’s about power. That is all repubs want or care about. And they don’t care how many innocent lives they destroy on the way.

  • 100% of evangelicals will support Trump in 2020. Both of them.

    At current churn rates, there will be a lot fewer evangelicals.

  • Power. Lust for power. Racism. Financial gain for those already multi millionaires. Feelings of superiority over brown people for those without money. Power. More power. Greed. Fascist MAGA pep rallies. Platitudes, selfishness and xenophobia in place of real solutions to international relations, global warming, immigration etc. And power.

    What did I miss?

  • So what you are saying is that the repubs finally wised up and starting acting like dems? Funny.

    “It’s all about power. That is all repubs want or care about.”

    And the dems don’t?

  • No, what I am saying is republicans are nothing but lying hypocrites.

    Honest people who “wise up” acknowledge the change and apologize.

    Lying hypocrites just gaslight.

  • “Exposing someone’s rhetorical fails is equivalent to “beating them up” in your mind?”

    And you’d better not be standing and smiling, and certainly not wearing a certain color of hat while you’re doing it – or liberal celebrities may want to “intervene” by punching you in the face (and other places), shooting you on sight, electrocuting you, feeding you into a wood-chipper, or the like.

  • I am not sure you’re the person who should be pontificating about pro-lfe or the traditional family.

    Do you have any qualifications besides being in favor of abortion and same sex marriage?

  • “…how did physical violence get into a discussion….”

    its known as analogy .

    “It’s called “disrupting….”

    or it’s called committing yourself to failure .

  • And you really believe that all of Reality is accessible to your five senses? That’s not only simplistic (and simple minded), it sets you up for some unpleasant surprises.

  • Well, I guess we’ll have to leave that judgment to other readers. I, for one, see no point in engaging with someone who aggressively attacks (i.e., “engages”) others for their religious viewpoint…and then pretends that they’re not “engaging.”

  • In almost every forum I encounter, it seems that people have forgotten that the electorate was offered Clinton and Trump. Who is the bigger liar of the two? The public rightly knew it was Clinton. Does Trump really love America? Yes. Did the Obama’s truly love America (who made a deal with Russian’s…remember “Give me more time”?) No! Clinton loves herself, not America. She loves Margaret Sanger and the culture of death. No evangelical Christian that I know is enthusiastic about Trump, and I know hundreds of evangelicals! But, the DNC hates God, they hate babies, they love Marx, and they love socialism, and they love fruit cakes like Occasia Cortez. And to add to all of this, the press HATES HATES HATES Mike Pence. Pence is the nicest, calmest politician, with impeccable character, and the American left would piss on him if they could. So, the DNC was the bigger pile of poop than the RNC. However, If Ben Sasse runs for office, I will gladly dump Trump for Sasse. But, the leftest and the media will do all they can to destroy him. What about you? If given a good candidate, would you support them…or have you been deceived by the media?

  • Standing is aggression, a smile is a smirk, and the color red is a fighting offense…if you’re a bull, that is (i.e., the source of BS).

  • And standing is “called” aggression, and a smile is “called” a smirk. If you need to import hateful motives to explain unremarkable actions, you need some new “analogies.”

  • In any case, if she must needs intervene to stop you from “beating up” Tater, ’nuff said about who’s getting the worst of the skirmish. 😏

  • you want to argue with Spuddie, have at it .

    you seem to want that so much that you will not discuss or reason . i will continue to try to talk with those who disagree . if that is unremarkable action, that would be good as the internet seems to me to be a place of argument and nastiness, not trying for connection .

    with this have the last word . it is yours .

  • You have the last deflection (my reference to “unremarkable actions” has nothing to do with anything you said). You intervened in defense of Spuddie and his self-exalting put-downs. If you’re now backing off of that, so much the better.

  • ….and all the new laws of physics that will be represented later in the multiverses (if they are shown to exist) will still not need any gods in any universal operations…..

    Prove your gods if you want them !

  • Tough – we have suffered the opinions and vagaries and murders and persecutions by the god-believers for millenia….

    Prove your gods
    or
    bugger off with the quite obvious lies about gods….

  • So – obviously no gods here….
    Considering the inconvenient fact that no god has ever been proven!!!

    [your god only has One Single Solitary book (a book) as your evidence…]

    Nope – No gods here….

  • whether republican or democrat or independent, we can hope and pray, but more important we must work so that in 2 years there is not trump . he was elected by a fairly massive wave of dissatisfaction with how this country was being run .

    the feeling–and i think it was accurate–was that the white house and both sides of the aisle in congress and listened more to those doing “created destruction” of the economy (and that meant in real terms ignoring those tossed away by the old economy) and not to those feeling the destruction of their jobs and their lives .

    now we need someone who can listen, but also run the country in a way that all can see that the country is working for them .

  • Re: “Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan, who is reportedly considering a primary challenge to Trump, contrasts with the president in ways that should matter. He is a decent and competent man of quiet strength and dignity.” 

    Yes, there’s a contrast here, and yes, it does matter. Hogan’s qualities — decency, competence, quiet strength, and dignity — are all things that fundagelicals no longer want in a leader. They now want their leaders to be crude, ignorant, thin-skinned, and infantile. And they have all of those things, and more, in their Groper-in-Chief, whom they consider to be a latter-day King Cyrus … and that’s their excuse for supporting a childish, moronic, immature lech. Falwell Junior is absolutely correct when he says there’s nothing his Dear Leader can do which will make fundagelicals let go of him. Moreover, the GiC himself is aware of this, too, and has been for a long time. 

  • With people like Paul Ryan putting together budgets, otsi hard to accomplish cutting PP funds. But if Trump not on side of life, why are Dems so terrified of his SCOTUS picks? And what do his personal failings in the past have to do with policies he is now supporting?

  • No. Taxes are up for most people. Taxes are down for the ultra rich. And the IRS manipulated withholding schedules to make it appear taxes went down. A whole lot of people are in for a shock on April 15.

    Trump inherited a strong economy. Yet farmers are struggling due to the impact vof tariff wars. Corps are still closing US factories and sending jobs overseas. Harley Davidson had to move some motorcycle production overseas because of the pointless and absurd Trump created tariff war.

    And even the evidence available right now clearly shows Russian interference in our elections, and Trump campaign willingness to accept Russian help. Trump himself asked for Russian interference on national tv.

    You could stand in a 20 foot pile of Starbucks used coffee grounds and not smell coffee.

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